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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Attitudes to Hillary Clinton

80 replies

Felascloak · 08/06/2016 17:14

Been reading the Beebs coverage of Hillary Clintons nomination today (and the comments on HYS) and I'm pretty disgusted. Very little support for her as the first female nominee. Loads of disparaging comments about her marriage. Suggestions on nepotism

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36475840

And to top it off the BBC have a video about how she "must own her inner bitch".

Ffs. What is the male equivalent of an "inner bitch" and do men ever have to own it?

I couldn't give a shit about her politics, surely it is to be celebrated that a woman has got to this stage for the first time? Compare with all the excitement about Obama.
Today is one of those days where the world's sexism has slapped me in the face Sad
Apologies for the rant

OP posts:
SenecaFalls · 09/06/2016 20:49

Elendon From your lips to Bernie's ears. Smile

www.cnn.com/2016/06/09/politics/bernie-sanders-washington/index.html

NoodleEatingPoodle · 09/06/2016 20:54

His name is Sanders, not Saunders.

Clinton is not a socialist AT ALL. She has repeatedly supported and praised the economic policies of the other Clinton presidency and has even indicated that as President she would "put Bill in charge of the economy" because of what a great job he did with it in the 90s. Bill Clinton signed into law the Republican drafted "Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act" Angry which essentially dismantled the New Deal, imposed 5-year lifetime limits on the receipt of welfare, prohibited people with felony drug convictions from ever receiving food stamps, and barred welfare benefits for immigrants for the first five years of their residence in the country.

Sanders' view is that inequality and economic injustice produces poverty, and that the economic system needs to be overhauled to ensure access to a decent education, health care, housing, and living wage for everyone as a baseline. The Clinton view (and I think it's equally true of either Clinton) is that the poor need to take "personal responsibility." HRC is strong on healthcare, but on the other issues of economic inequality she has a poor record of progressive positions.

She's far, far more hawkish than Sanders too. And far less strong on environmental issues.

I think that equal representation of women (in government, in society, in life) is every bit as important an issue as economic justice, world peace, and stopping climate change. I think it's entirely valid to say "I don't love everything about her policy positions, but it is long past time for a woman president so I'm voting for Hillary." I nearly said that myself in the primaries, and I will be 100% behind her in the general election.

Hillary Clinton is extremely smart, experienced, capable, and prepared for the presidency. She is many million times a better option than the GOP nightmare.

But the Democratic party has shifted ever rightward (as has the Republican party), and Bill Clinton's neoliberal presidency, with Hillary as an unofficial cabinet member and his closes advisor, represents for many hundreds of thousands of progressives the point at which their party left them and their ideals of economic justice behind. There are very good reasons why people (like me) who are desperate to see a woman president, would still vote for Bernie over Hillary, and want him to stay in as long as possible, in order to continue giving voice to the progressive base, and influence the party platform coming out of the National Convention.

If Elizabeth Warren had run, the progressives wouldn't have to choose between their desire to vote for a woman, and almost every other progressive value. I wish she had run. I bet Sanders would have bowed out very early if Warren was in the race and looked to have a chance. Sanders and Warren are ideological twins, and I hope that Hillary might choose her as running mate to consolidate the party and bring in Bernie's voters. In which case, Bernie's decision to run against Clinton in the primary and to energise the progressive base, will have been the catalyst for an all-woman ticket going into the general election.

Now that would be something to get excited about.

NoodleEatingPoodle · 09/06/2016 20:55

He has said all along that he would do everything possible to help Clinton get elected if she was the nominee. It's not a surprise that he's still saying that now as the primaries are drawing to a close.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/06/2016 21:06

I think you confusing Lenin with Stalin
The latter was responsible for soviet union atrocities.Lenin was an idealistic,no doubt greatest revolutionist of 20th century

No I am not confusing the 2.

bridgetoc · 09/06/2016 22:24

Good old Maggie.....

TheDowagerCuntess · 10/06/2016 00:04

I come from a country that at one point had a woman Prime Minister (now vying for first woman SG of the UN), leader of the opposition, head of the judiciary, and Govenor General all at the same time. Oh, for those halcyon days.

We were also the first country to give women the vote in 1893.

We're back to all male now of course, although the next GG is another woman. Even a so-called progressive country such as ours (admittedly not at all progressive in other ways - e.g. appalling DV stats), still reverts back to the default of men in charge...

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 10/06/2016 00:45

It interests me what someone said up thread about black people using the word bigger. If that happened I doubt the BBC would use a snippet as a headline

I'm very much sure they would- not the word itself but the fact that someone had used it. I'm still struggling to see why you think the BBC rather than Tina Brown is at fault.

Felascloak · 10/06/2016 08:09

Well, tbh lass is think you are being deliberately obtuse. But I will spell it out again.
I didn't hear the Tina brown interview. When I looked at the BBC page on the side bar was a link that "Hillary should own her inner bitch". Imo this is a sexist term and a headline they didn't need to use. It gives a bad impression of her as a candidate.
Can't comment on Tina as I don't know the context it was used in. I'm sure she said numerous other things they could have used instead in her 5 minute interview.

OP posts:
Dozer · 10/06/2016 12:41

I've seen subtitles like that on the BBC website before be changed, hopefully because someone at the BBC gets it's not OK!

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 10/06/2016 13:34

The interview with Tina Brown is on the second link you posted and is still live.

Have you listened to it ?

Why can't you comment on Tina Brown? She is the one who was talking about "inner bitches". You can hear what she said , the link is still live.

Or is it all right for her to say it but just not for anyone to report it?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 10/06/2016 13:40

Assuming it does not get removed Fela here it is. I'm very surprised you can't summon up a single word of criticism about the person who said it as opposed to the person who reported what was said.

Hillary Clinton 'must own her inner bitch' - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36478571

FrancisdeSales · 10/06/2016 14:11

Unfortunately at least here in the US it's hard to get excited about Hilary's nomination. She ran for Democratic Presidential Candidate 8 years ago with Obama and was likely to take it but stepped aside when it was clear Obama was now likely to win the nomination.

So it is an anticlimax after she has been campaigning for the best part of a decade. She is not exciting and is very much an establishment candidate. Americans want change and are looking for candidates outside the classic establishment. That's how Obama was elected and many people are disappointed with his presidency as he wasn't the radical they were hoping for.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 10/06/2016 14:20

Have to say I agree with Lass.
It's like when that woman said "the n word" on Big Brother a few years back and everybody reported it, and you are incensed about the people reporting it!
Don't shoot the messenger.

SenecaFalls · 10/06/2016 15:14

I just listened to the clip. I can see why the BBC wanted to use the word "bitch." I'm not sure that they could have conveyed the same sense of what Tina Brown said with a headline that didn't use it. But it underscores how that word is really just another word to most people; it's offensive to me and I don't use it. I gather that younger feminists are reclaiming it to some extent, but I have no wish to do so.

Tina Brown's comments are sexist in my opinion, but even more ageist.
So Hillary needs to wear sunglasses and change her wardrobe to appeal to younger women? Angry

Elendon · 10/06/2016 16:49

Noodle

Apologies for the miss spell on Sanders surname.

It seems Warren has now given her full support for Clinton and may even throw her hat into the vice presidential ring. Now two women running together would be phenomenal.

NoodleEatingPoodle · 10/06/2016 17:37

Certainly no need to apologise to me about the name! I wasn't making a pointed remark at you in particular, there were a few posts on the thread referring to him as 'Saunders', while also strongly implying that his reasons for running against Clinton, or for staying in the race to the end, were sexist. I think that both things - calling him by the wrong name and assuming that about his motivation - make it clear that some people commenting really don't know much at all about Bernie Sanders. So I wanted to explain from my point of view why a feminist who respects Hillary and very much wants a woman president might still vote for Bernie in this primary, or might vote for Hillary but still be grateful that Bernie has shifted the party platform significantly leftward from Hillary's earlier positions, which will be the reason that she may have to choose Elizabeth Warren for her running mate in order to bring the progressives back into the fold.

I am waiting for the announcement and really really hope it happens. Elizabeth Warren is a force of nature - if a Vice Presidency sets her up for her own run in eight years' time, that will be the best outcome out of this whole thing. And in this election, Bernie's campaign will have been the catalyst for the Dems having an extremely viable female POTUS/ female Veep ticket with a centrist / progressive platform, rather than the female POTUS / male Veep ticket with a center right platform that would have been likely had the Bernie phenomenon not happened.

Dorje · 10/06/2016 18:23

I think Clinton has more to offer globally: Trump is a joke, and could write off America. I know many young American women who have said they will leave America if Clinton doesn't get in to office. They just don't want to be in America with trump.
Unfortunately globally we are at a critical juncture with climate change, and we cannot afford to have a blithering gung-ho idiot as president of energy guzzling America.

I'm not impressed with the (reported / quoted) comments from the BBC. Wtf is the inner bitch? I think some editor may get into hot water in beggars bush, for not reporting that as a quote from an external source. It looks like the BBC have said it.

I'm glad that there is a women candidate for the us presidency at last.

As a PP said, Thatcher, the Queen and Merkel have beaten a track through the male, stale political jungle for other women to follow.
My country has a woman deputy priminister at the moment, and has had two women presidents. I'm delighted to say that gender of a candidate has lost its novelty value.

The issues for the next US president will be multi faceted and far reaching. I would say the number one issue for America and globally, is climate change, and how it will effect the global economy.

Clinton is the best qualified candidate for this actually international job as president of America- she has intelligence, education, experience and breadth of vision. She understands how the political system works and can work within it.
Clinton may not set the world aflame with her sartorial choices, but a suit is a suit, and America is a lot more conservative than the west and eastern edges seem. The Queen or Merkel are hardly trailblazers in that regard either. This isn't a dance of the seven veils anyhoo, it's a professional job.

Suit wearing (no comments about that I see) Trump seems very backward, inward, vindictive, immature, and ingrown: he hasn't got any vision, just some kind of simplistic, redundant, ignorant, fear driven solipsism. I'd say he has a horrible temper. He definately has a lot of Freudian influences- trump towers anyone

I pity the republicans and the GOP actually.... they really are in crisis and have nothing to offer at all! Embarrassed for them!

bridgetoc · 10/06/2016 18:30

Lets be honest...... Both candidates are poor. Trump is scary, but the fact that he has any chance at all, when he should have none, says a lot about Clinton!

Dozer · 10/06/2016 20:11

No, it says a lot about certain voters in the USA.

Dozer · 10/06/2016 20:11

The Queen?!

bridgetoc · 10/06/2016 20:16

If it was Obama, or Bill Clinton running for president , Trump would not stand a chance, not a hope in hell would Donald have. However, with Hilary he does, and that's because she does not come across well Dozer.

SenecaFalls · 10/06/2016 20:22

Trump is scary, but the fact that he has any chance at all, when he should have none, says a lot about Clinton!

No it does not. Trump's candidacy has been driven by racist and sexist elements in the Republican party that the party has drawn to itself over the years. As someone posted on another forum, Trump's slogan "Make America Great Again" resonates with many of his supporters as "Make America White Again."

Noodle I agree with most of your observations. I have supported Hillary Clinton from the beginning, but I am one of those people who is glad that Bernie has moved the party to the left. As for Elizabeth Warren, I would love to see her be the VP candidate.

Dozer · 10/06/2016 20:23

People who hear what Trump has said and still says and still consider voting for him rather than any other candidate must share or at least be prepared to tolerate his views. Which reflects on them.

And perhaps some don't want a woman president.

DetestableHerytike · 11/06/2016 14:04

As with the U.K., many people will vote for their party no matter who heads it. As with the U.K., the leader's views are far from the only things that matter as there are the Houses plus the Secretaries to actually enact things

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 11/06/2016 14:12

To me the equivalent would be say Nicola Sturgeon standing against Tommy Sheridan ( not in political views but as in proper candidate versus joke candidate). Unfortunately US voters are not , it seems, seeing Trump as the joke candidate.

So far as Clinton herself if her opponent were say John McCain I think she'd lose so from that point of view (bearing in mind I'm not American and could well be completely wrong) she does not look like a strong candidate.