Describing dads as 'baby-sitters' is sexist - against men??

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www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-36144487

I'm glad these men are making the point that their decision to take an equal role in parenting their own children should not be seen as a huge favour to the mothers of their children.They also point out how annoying it is when TV ads for domestic products imply that men are hopeless at housework. However, how can they regard such an attitude as sexist against men? Surely the sexism here is against women as this attitude implies that women are the sex that are 'naturally' good at housework, and that women are the sex who should be providing the childcare.

The fact that these men have decided to play the victim card seems disingenuous and, in fact, sexist in itself.

So, male social workers, male policemen, male friends? Although male interaction with victims can be hugely problematic. Women might not want a refuge run or staffed by men.

I think it is. I also think it is sexist towards women by assuming there very specific gender roles which much be adhered to.

I am currently expecting our first child and the other day my sister was asking my Mum and I if we wanted to go and see something at the theatre. When I said yes my Mum said well you will have to ask your DH if he would baby sit. My sister and I were horrified at the use of word and the assumption that I would have to check with him before making arrangements (we plan to use a whoever gets it first on the calendar arrangement). It is definitely a problem.

I agree with Round, sexist against both sexes.

I think being raped by men is possibly more of a 'hurdle' really. In comparison, people not inviting your child for a sleepover is sad, but not such a big deal. It strikes me as laughable that men ignore women's repeatedly pleas to understand how awful men's behaviour toward them is, but when women take action to protect their children (politely, by turning down playdates) men are straight to the press saying it's so sad and hard and awful for them.

There are two main groups in our society. One runs and owns pretty much everything and kills, rapes and maims the other group pretty much constantly. They are asked to stop, they refuse, resist, deny. They have the power to change things and they don't.

The other group, aware of the killing, raping and maiming, says no I'd rather my children didn't interact with you.

Cue sob story in the paper. It's not even funny it's so fucking ridiculous.

I can see where you are coming from. I think our discussion-within-a-discussion is done.

How about not coming on a feminist board to tell women what to think Grimarse? That would be a really good start. The next step would be to challenge your male friends when they make sexist remarks. The next step would be to learn more about feminism and how the patriarchal society that causes men to be seen as secondary caregivers came to exist. All things that you could do yourself to begin tackling this problem. If every man did the same thing then the problem would be well on the way to being solved.

Violent men are only part of the problem. The rest of it is made up by men like you who deny there even is a problem and who expend time and energy trying to tell women to shut up.

How about not coming on a feminist board to tell women what to think

Agreed. That seems to be your job.

That makes absolutely no sense Grimarse.

They surely can't complain they are being oppressed, which IF sexist parallels racist, they would be.

The words have the same ending and all, so yeah, I would say sexist parallels racist, and therefore, no, sexism against men is not possible in the real world.

There is only one sexism, and if it seems to disadvantage men, then you can be sure that, in the long run, it is women who suffer.

Oh Sparrowhawk! Of course you can't expect men to stand up to patriarchy! They'd be laughed at!

"I can see where you are coming from. I think our discussion-within-a-discussion is done."

Grimarse, being a right pain in the arse! Manplaining and telling women to shut up, and telling us what we should and should not be doing, and expecting women to make it all right, tell him what to do, find a solution to everything, sympathize with his issues............

Whilst doing bugger-all about it himself! If it wasn't so blatant, and we weren't all being so bloody polite, it would be funny.

It boils down to that quote - Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them

Calling this sexism basically equates someone feeling sorry for themselves because someone thought they weren't good enough to parent because they have a penis, with someone being expected to take on all the domestic and childrearing labour because they have a vagina, so it's not really on the same level.

On the one hand, you just need a bit of self-esteem and a good come-back, on the other you need mass societal change.

Of course, mass societal change will fix both problems.

It's a good awareness raising excercise imo. Article annoys me though, it's like it's designed to create the very argument on this thread.

Personally I wouldn't let my child (until a lot older at least) attend a sleepover with anyone I didn't know the parents personally. regardless of the gender of the parent. I think it's taking a risk otherwise, and I'd never be offended if someone was unwilling to take the risk with me without knowing me.

It's opposite sides of the same coin re: gender roles, albeit it only affects the 16% of stay at home parents who are men. So the larger number of men who this doesn't affect this won't even be a blip on their radar. It will matter a great deal to men who are or aspire to be primary caregivers.

The words have the same ending and all, so yeah, I would say sexist parallels racist, and therefore, no, sexism against men is not possible in the real world

I disagree. I suppose it depends on your real world.

Try telling an employment tribunal you didn't employ a white man just because he is a white man assuming that it is not a situation where there is any justification to discriminate and that your behaviour wasn't sexist by which I mean motivated by nothing except sex and race discrimination

This is sexist. Both men and women are guilty of the "baby sitting " thing.

Dervel, what is it raising awareness of, in your opinion?

Fatherhood being a significant role both in terms of responsibilities, and importance to children, and lass is right this isn't women being sexist towards men. It is just as important (if not more so) how men see themselves as parents.

For the record I have little time for a lot of men who bang on about parental rights. To make the change they want more men need to be more hands on with their children. Not expect disproportionate contact that doesn't reflect what children are used to prior to parents splitting.

I like the quote about assuming women are the primary caregiver is outdated followed up by a statistic about how only 16% of men primary carers. It's outdated but statistically probable! I don't think that's catchy enough for a t-shirt though.

You said earlier 'there are some serious attitudinal problems to be overcome' suggesting that women not sending their children to male carers is a 'serious attitudinal problem' that must 'be overcome.' Is that what you meant, or did you mean something else?

Yes, that is a problem with attitudes in general. There is nothing about that statement which suggests the mothers concerned are responsible for such attitudes, or even that such attitudes are unreasonable in the circumstances - only that they are problematic and it would be desirable to find the means to alter them.

Surely it's not the attitudes that have to be changed crazycatdad, but the societal problems that cause those attitudes - which as you say are not unreasonable given the circumstances?

I see what you mean, yes, fixing the societal problems also fixes the attitudes. I didn't expect that Grimarse would have meant it to mean that we could just fix the people with the attitudes.

He himself said it was a bad choice of words, so we've cleared it up already.

I agree with roundandround sounds pretty sexist against men and women to me.

Indeed. I confess I didn't realise there was another page to this thread until after I posted.

I agree, men complaining about this kind of thing is frankly embarrassing, it's just jumping on the hey-we-face-sexism-too bandwagon without any consideration of proportionality.