Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What do people think of this going on at my daughter's primary school?

232 replies

DoctorBeat · 14/04/2016 10:45

Nationalism with some gender stereotyping thrown in for good measure? Girls bring in something sweet?! 😒

What do people think of this going on at my daughter's primary school?
OP posts:
fiddlesticks123 · 14/04/2016 20:40

I'm really am sorry Doctor, I didn't mean to be mean or unkind, and I am open minded to these issues. I work in a heavily male dominated industry and do a lot within our quite large business to inspire and educate young girls as to opening their eyes to different career options. I am definitely there with you when there is a battle to fight, I just think don't think this is one of them.

MyCrispBag · 14/04/2016 20:42

Marie Stopes views on eugenics were focused just as much on class as disability. She also had other political views and leanings that were fairly suspect. An incredible amount of apologism, special pleading and mental gymnastics goes into explaining away the troubling aspects of her activism and writing.

stubbornstains · 14/04/2016 20:42

I totally, completely get you OP. In fact, from your OP I initially suspected you were talking about DS's school - but we're even further south and west than you and another 20 years behind.

Let me guess...taken on its own this might be OK, but there's the whole drip drip of monocultural assumption behind it, perhaps? No, our school doesn't celebrate Diwali. It doesn't celebrate Eid. I'm pretty sure the kids have zero idea that these festivals exist. Meanwhile, there's a lot of sneaky promotion of Christianity, to the point that you could almost call it evangelism. Without any of the parents' prior knowledge or permission, the kids have been being bussed off to church to attend some kind of Christian service/ activity- now my 6 year old DS tells me he's a Christian and I shouldn't be saying "hell" because it's a rude word!

There's a "British Values" display in the school, with photos of the Royal Family and Winston Churchill. That's it. Not a single Briton who isn't white and upper class.

And what are these "British Values" anyway? Tolerance and democracy? Because all furriners are intolerant and undemocratic? Right....

Perhaps a good costume would be a 19th century colonialist in shorts and pith helmet? Grin.

Wish me luck for Monday- I'll be having Words at the PTA meeting about this whole Christianity thing!

MyCrispBag · 14/04/2016 20:43

Sylvia Pankhurst is my fancy dress suggestion. She was my favourite Pankhurst.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 14/04/2016 20:44

Just wanted to say I very much agree with bertrand regarding Marie Stopes. You can't really judge her by today's sensibilities.

I wouldn't be bothered by the girls bring in sweet stuff thing. If the school is sexist I'm sure there will be lots of other stuff it does to worry about.
If this is the worst gender stereotyping issue to come up there really isn't much of an issue.

TeiTetua · 15/04/2016 00:04

They could so easily have shaken up the conventional world a little by asking the girls for savoury things and the boys for sweet, but no.

Actually I wish they wouldn't split the kids up by gender over anything. It always comes out seeming as if they're putting expectations on them.

DecoyPark · 15/04/2016 00:44

Tei They have a boys vs girls competition during swimming lessons. They have to compete, as a group, to be the first out of the changing rooms each week.

SomeDyke · 15/04/2016 09:39

I think the real issue isn't if girls are sweet and boys are salty, or whatever, the real issue is the lazy splitting on grounds of sex at all. Because whether you are offended or not, the underlying assumption is that it is fine to split based on sex. If someone tried it for, say, ethnicity (okay non-white kids bring savoury, white kids bring sweet), or religion (Jews bring puddings, the Muslims can bring the main course, Christians the starter, and atheists are responsible for the beverages!), then people could see the potential problems. Yet sex? If you object you are over reacting despite the fact that most of us know our sex does make a big difference to almost everything even when it shouldn't. Assuming the split is natural hence unproblematic is the root of the problem. You need to split on something truly random (like even or odd birthday date although now I'm concerned about the psychological impact on being called an odd!)......

If we tried it amongst my STEM undergrads, you'd get one cupcake per tutorial group, almost...........

TeiTetua · 15/04/2016 09:46

Well, I wouldn't be all up in arms over the who-gets-dressed-fastest race, but my instinct is against anything that encourages the kids to see themselves as divided by gender. Oops, SomeDyke has just beaten me to stating that. Well, let's say it anyway. I want the girls and boys to support each other, and if there's competition, make them rivals on some other (totally arbitrary) basis. Program the sorting hat to do it!

scallopsrgreat · 15/04/2016 09:54

"Actually I wish they wouldn't split the kids up by gender over anything. It always comes out seeming as if they're putting expectations on them." A really good point.

I'm with you OP. I also agree that cake making for girls is a lazy stereotype which carries on into adulthood and they'll find themselves being asked to make cakes for bake sales at their children's school. As others have said it just adds to the drip drip effect.

All those saying that they wouldn't be offended if it was Spanish day in Spain or whatever. Maybe you would be offended if you came from a country where Spanish rule had been damaging. British rule was imposed across the world. People didn't ask for it or want it. It was oppressive. Being British isn't always something people want to celebrate and yes it could exclude those who have felt that oppression (especially if their Britishness doesn't include pork pies and sausages, for example).

MrsBoDuke · 15/04/2016 09:55

I'm another that would be far more concerned about a school printing 'Britains' instead of 'Britons' tbh.

The food split is just a simple way to get a fairly even spread, you're overthinking that.

The terrible SPAG is far more pressing an issue.

scallopsrgreat · 15/04/2016 09:56

If they'd wanted to celebrate being British they could have had a theme of what being British means to you, for example. And brought food accordingly.

thecatfromjapan · 15/04/2016 09:57

I think it's wank.
I'd expect more reflectivity in a modern school.
I keep saying this but ... Most teachers are graduates and the Humanities grads (for sure) will have read up on modern political theory - teachers don't appear in the classroom, benignly innocent of university-level discussions of race, gender, and class - they tend to be steeped in it.
I'd be a bit Shock at this.

PoodlesOfFun · 15/04/2016 10:21

Princess and knights would annoy me as well as separating the children by sweet and savory. Bit silly also annoying for parents with a couple kids of both sexes.

guinnessgirl · 16/04/2016 08:07

Haven't RTFT, but the only issue I have with this is the fact that a school doesn't know the difference between "Britain" and "Britons". FFS.

BertrandRussell · 16/04/2016 08:30

"teachers don't appear in the classroom, benignly innocent of university-level discussions of race, gender, and class"

This. And part of their job is to counteract stereotyping, overt and covet........

StormyBlue · 16/04/2016 08:46

Looks like a BNP youth club. I would consider sending in a plate of sushi or onion bhajis to take the piss.

LurcioAgain · 16/04/2016 09:01

To those posters saying "it's just a convenient way of ensuring equal numbers of each type of dish" can I introduce you to the concept of "stereotype threat"?

Stereotype threat is a well documented psychological phenomenon whereby when you live in a culture which holds certain stereotypes about certain groups of people ("girls aren't good at maths", "boys don't like reading much and have to be forced to do it", "black students are better at sport than academic subjects"), being reminded of that stereotype can reduce your performance in tests. It's immensely powerful - you can reproduce it entirely artificially. There have been experiments done where classes of college students are given the entirely false "information" at the beginning of a class that "people with brown eyes are better at algebra than people with blue eyes", then given an algebra test at the end of the class, the blue-eyed students perform worse than the brown-eyed students - being told you're no good at something is enough to depress your performance even if there's no basis in truth.

And with real-world stereotype threat, we're so immersed in this culture that you don't need to say "girls aren't good at maths" to the group, you just have bring "being a girl" to the front of their minds. So, for instance, with job tests, if you do the "sexual and racial diversity questionnaire" before the test, women's and BEM candidates' test scores drop off relative to groups where the questionnaire is administered after the tests. (Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender has a good chapter on this).

This is why (and I believe this is taught in teacher training courses these days) it is considered good educational practice not to split groups into "boys over here, girls over there" as a quick (and lazy) way of dividing a class in two (unless of course you have an actual reason, like wanting to deliver sex ed without having the boys embarrassed when the girls giggle about wet dreams, and the girls embarrassed when the boys giggle about periods).

kittybiscuits · 16/04/2016 09:03

It's hideous.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 16/04/2016 10:33

I'm sure what Lurcio says is correct and valid but if I had a child at this school I really would be more bothered by the spelling mistake and poor sentence construction. (Repetition of "day")

Perhaps it's all part and parcel of not being a terribly good school.

BertrandRussell · 16/04/2016 11:24

Can I suggest that people who don't think this sort of unconscious stereotyping matters follow #manwhohasitall on FB or Twitter. Very funny and thought provoking too

BertrandRussell · 16/04/2016 11:28

For example

""Being called a 'businesswoman' doesn't bother me at all, because I know it covers both women & men," James, Businesswoman, age 34."

Hulababy · 16/04/2016 11:50

Minimover - my experience of parties at schools is you'd be better with a 30/70 split of savoury/sweet bit the other way round. Much of the savoury goes un-eaten anyway!

Hulababy · 16/04/2016 11:57

I have no issue with the Idea of a British Day type celebration. But then I work in a multi cultural school and we have parties and/or other events to celebrate and acknowledge, and learn about other cultures and other religions alongside that. We always have an Eid party, and celebrate things like Chinese New Year, Diwali, etc. Often parents come in to do special assemblies for some lesser known (to us anyway) celebrations from other countries/cultures/religions too.

MrsBoDuke · 16/04/2016 12:17

BertrandRussel, just had a quick look at #manwhohasitall on FB, v v funny!
(And shocking at the same time).

What do people think of this going on at my daughter's primary school?
What do people think of this going on at my daughter's primary school?
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.