Bruce Springsteen and North Carolina bathroom laws

[sparechange]

Bruce Springsteen has just issued the following statement:
As you, my fans, know I’m scheduled to play in Greensboro, North Carolina this Sunday. As we also know, North Carolina has just passed HB2, which the media are referring to as the “bathroom” law. HB2 — known officially as the Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act — dictates which bathrooms transgender people are permitted to use. Just as important, the law also attacks the rights of LGBT citizens to sue when their human rights are violated in the workplace. No other group of North Carolinians faces such a burden. To my mind, it’s an attempt by people who cannot stand the progress our country has made in recognizing the human rights of all of our citizens to overturn that progress. Right now, there are many groups, businesses, and individuals in North Carolina working to oppose and overcome these negative developments. Taking all of this into account, I feel that this is a time for me and the band to show solidarity for those freedom fighters. As a result, and with deepest apologies to our dedicated fans in Greensboro, we have canceled our show scheduled for Sunday, April 10th. Some things are more important than a rock show and this fight against prejudice and bigotry — which is happening as I write — is one of them. It is the strongest means I have for raising my voice in opposition to those who continue to push us backwards instead of forwards.

Thoughts?

Some paedophiles manage to get jobs working with children despite list 99, dbs etc. We don't scrap them because they aren't 100% effective and some genuine people can't get dbs because of a lack of correct ID papers. We still don't allow anyone to work with children.

Sex segregation is a blunt tool but it is one method we use to protect women's safety and dignity. Though I'm not against introducing other methods.

Tbh for me it isn't just that I think more women will be assaulted. It's the men who get off on watching women, exposing themselves or just like to make women upset. They are the ones who will feel emboldened by a change in the law because they will have a 'right' to be there. They'll even be able to prosecute their victims for asking for help.

Most women won't make a fuss. They'll just stop using those services quietly.

I also worry about people in need of intimate care, who can currently chose a female care giver but under new laws would not be able to. What respect given to their privacy?

Mide, so if women's safe spaces are a little bit unsafe at present, you might as well make them totally unsafe? Great logic. Making it essentially a hate crime to challenge a male person in a women's toilet will endanger women's lives. I'm a big fan of Bruce so this is coming as a bit of a blow.

Springsteen is talking out of his non-gender-specific arse.

No dicks in women's loos. No exceptions. If you haven't had surgery then whatever you claim to be, use the men's loos, they won't care and if they do it's too bad.

Women in men's loos do not present the same physical danger, but when I'm taking a piss I don't want women around - it's private. There may be many places from which men wrongly exclude women but a men's loo is not one of them.

It's not difficult.

Actually unset UK law currently women can use the men's toilets. Both men and women can enter the other sexed toilets. Just men can't use women's.

Yes; I was saying how - in my respectful opinion - the law should be.

TBH I've never had a personal issue with this. But I have at my pool where the rule is ninth birthday and up and there are no cubicles, it is all bench-and-locker. Another man tried to bring his daughter and niece, both eleven, into the men's changing rooms and I insisted he send them through the women's side in spite of his concern that they would waste time and faff around or lose something.

JTB if they do.

I would not expect a woman to take boys of the same age through the women's side either.

My local pool has a 'changing village' which is unisex. It works very well for families and is specifically designed that way.

Andrew I agree with you. I think it's a privacy and dignity as well as a safety issue.

My DH would be horrified at having to get changed in front of an 11 year old girl who wasn't his daughter or a woman other than me. This would be regardless of how they self identified.

In the case of women and girls nearly all of whom have experienced some form of sexual harassment and who tend to be smaller and not as strong we can add fear and safety concerns to the issues of privacy and dignity.

I don't want to share a public toilet with someone who has a penis. Even if they are wearing a skirt and lipstick.

Me too it's as simple as that. Am I in danger not necessarily but I would certainly feel more wary if I was using a public toilet and the only other person who was is a trans woman.

But it comes down to my choice of feeling safe and my privacy - totally being ignored by guess who MEN

male privilege literally dressed up

Unisex toilets are what the trans community should be pushing for and they should be provided along with single sex toilets then we all have a choice

I don't want to share a toilet with a 6'2 post op transwomen either as I only want to share some spaces with women and girls

Why is so many in the trans community are wanting to ignore how women feel? Is it fuelled by jealously, hatred, misdirected anger. It's all individual but collectively this is how it's coming across and of course all fuelled by the fact they are men and feel they can make decision for women

I read recently on a blog how trans women are actually the only real women as they make that choice to be women now I would have thought they would have been told to not be so ridiculous but no lots of thumbs up and right on sister

Mrsjamin you don't know they'll be totally unsafe tho do you? I know the research suggests that trans women commit violent offences at the same right as men but surely if men are attacking women in their safe spaces already it's already total unsafe.

Like I'm said I'm not disagreeing with people here, I'm of the opinion if you've got a penis you should use male segregated spaces. It's just if women's safe spaces aren't actually safe at the moment than a change in law isn't going to make them more unsafe. As people have said its not all about safety tho which I get.

I wonder if this board can help me out on something
I've seen a couple of places saying this has an effect on gay rights
I haven't studied the whole bill, but wondering how that is the case?

I think in this particular instance the whole law made it okay to discriminate against lgbt people in work and various other settings. Not just about trans in toilets

Mide7 Womens spaces will be more unsafe. At the moment if a man comes into a ladie, he can be challenged and removed. If trans women are allowed by law into a ladies loo, then a woman will not be able to challenge any man in the loo incase he is a trans person or identifies as a woman.

I think in this particular instance the whole law made it okay to discriminate against lgbt people in work and various other settings. Not just about trans in toilets

I think that's correct. It also protects religious views so in theory it might protect an employer or service provider discriminating to the detriment of a gay man or lesbian because their religion tells them homosexuality is wrong.

Ah, thanks
In that case it's a shame that the other issues aren't getting more UK coverage. BBC called it a gay rights issue then went on about loos with no other info.

Mide7 - at the moment a woman can challenge that person.

At the moment, there is a high bar to getting a gender recognition certificate, which would allow you access to women's bathrooms (and some people still disagree with, but, at least these people have 'proven' their trans status though dedication, commitment, and via medical professionals).

Yes, the problem is more men pretending to be trans than 'true' trans - but how can we tell the difference? At the moment it's quite an arduous journey, but if the law changes, if anyone is a woman who says they're a women, then how are we stopping the predators from just saying they're women?

Have you met teenage boys? There'll be plenty who think it's amusing to invade the girls toilets at school and harass the girls in there once all they have to do is say 'but I'm a girl'

It's women's toilets, because women used to mean 'adult human female' - as the word 'woman' has changed meaning, we need to rename the toilets 'female' toilets to make it clear this is sex segregation, not gender.

If someone who's a transwoman is scared of men in the men's toilet, why is it so wrong for women to be scared of men in the women's toilet?

Have you met teenage boys? There'll be plenty who think it's amusing to invade the girls toilets at school and harass the girls in there once all they have to do is say 'but I'm a girl'

That sort of behaviour is still going to be breach of school rules and possibly criminal law.

DelicateAir abusing or assaulting people would be against school rules obviously but what about just sitting in there, watching? Under new self identification rules schools wouldn't be able to stop it. How could they? If that teenage boy says they are a girl, then they are. No different to the other girls. Stopping them from entering or forcing them into other facilities would be discrimination and actionable.

Then the girls are left with changing in front of male bodied people, refusing to get changed or hiding in the toilets.

abusing or assaulting people would be against school rules obviously but what about just sitting in there, watching? Under new self identification rules schools wouldn't be able to stop it

Do you really think anyone at the moment has the right to hang out in school toilets or public toilets to just sit there watching other people? Please keep a perspective on this. Toilets are for urination and defecation. There are numerous prosecutions of gay men for "just sitting in there watching " in male toilets.

I worked for a long time in an FE college. Lots of girls used to eat their lunch in the toilets, spend their whole lunchtime there.

Teens don't just pop in, have a quick wee then toddle off. They go in groups and hang around awhile.

I understand the arguments about not letting trans women in and agree but was just confused by the statement on page one that men are already accessing women's toilet to abuse them. I think I'm missing the point

I dont have an issue with trans people

I have an issue with the new self identification laws

In that Bob Jones can say he is a woman, he will be able to access women only things be it toilets, changing rooms, womens awards, womens quotas, womens sports

He can keep his name, his beard, his penis, his comfortable shoes

And if a woman complains about that she is a transphobic bigot, fixated on genitals and on the wrong side of history

I dont get it...i really dont, i dont understand why people think thats ok

Bit cheesed off with Bruce as the statement sounds a bit like TOILETS...gay rights

And when it comes to loos and sports etc it doesn't affect non trans men, so stop saying "it doesn't affect me...but this is what you should do"

DelicateAir Some might proudly sit and advertise what they are doing but others will just make themselves look busy. There was a guy not long ago prosecuted because he liked to go into the women's toilets and listen to them (and I believe record them also) taking a piss. He got off on it. Some people are weird.

This next bit not specifically at DelicateAir

If you feel that you would have no problem getting naked infront of any male stranger, that's fine. If you feel you wouldn't mind changing a tampon, knowing a random male stranger was sitting only a few inches away passed a bit of particle board, that's fine. If you feel that you wouldn't mind getting intimate care from a male person, that's fine too.

However, other people do mind. Most people (male or female) like having some form of privacy irrespective of the safety needed by women from men. Particularly in more vulnerable situations.

I appreciate that some people aren't bothered about being sex segregated as long as the they are gender segregated. However I would question why since there is no indication that there is any demonstrable difference in offending rates based on how a person identifies as opposed to their birth sex. Therefore why segregate at all.

And even if there were, how do we even identify who is who when surgery, hormones or any other external measure cannot be used to quantify who is and who isn't genuinely trans. Which gets us back to, what's the point in segregating at all.

www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/bullring-toilet-pervert-who-wore-154191

I appreciate this story is a couple of years old but in this case, under new legislation, he wouldn't have had to dress up. Just identify as a woman. Then more than likely the woman who reported him to security (if at all as his mask was what drew attention) she would have been told by staff that they had an inclusive policy and not to be so bigoted.

Yes, this happened before this new legislation, however making it easier to carry out won't lessen the number of incidents or even let it stay the same. Some people will just feel emboldened.

There was a guy not long ago prosecuted because he liked to go into the women's toilets and listen to them (and I believe record them also) taking a piss. He got off on it. Some people are weird

I don't see in law why his declaring he is a woman would make a difference. If a biological woman or man were hanging round toilets for the same purpose the same result would apply. Same with the bloke with the mask.

I do understand your concerns but I also think pointing out things which are crimes now and will still be crimes detracts from more valid concerns.

soapbox although not directed at me I would hate to be naked in front a strange male but I'm the wrong person to ask. I'd hate it just as much in front of strange women. On the tampax point I would not have any issue. It's just a bodily function and one that does not make a noise. I don't like being in a cubicle where I can be heard peeing etc (or hear other people)