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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

NI 'miscarriage' case

43 replies

DingbatsFur · 04/04/2016 22:53

Hi,g
I'm not sure how widely reported this case has been outside of NI but I thought this board might fin it interesting.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35962134
Anything that sheds light on NI's poor handling of abortion is welcome but this story is such a sad case.

OP posts:

PalmerViolet · 06/04/2016 18:39

There was no visa requirement between the UK and Eire before the EU was there? So no, unaffected by free movement. Women have "gone to England" from Ireland since the abortion act came into force in the UK, sadly.

northdownmummy · 06/04/2016 18:48

I'm originally from Scotland but now living in NI. This case is really sad and I feel for the poor girl, most people I know would support a chance but politics here are so tribal and nothing at all about representing the will of the people.

I'm waiting for a family planning clinic appointment to sort outs more long term form of contraception following the birth of DD2. Just been told there's a 7 month wait!!!!
Don't give people easy access to birth control and don't allow them to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. It's all so infuriating

FreshwaterSelkie · 07/04/2016 07:04

It's awful on every level. This case, the law, everything.

Has there not been any movement, I thought it had recently been ruled that it was a human rights breech and NI needed to sort it? Even if you didn't care much about women's rights, it's outrageous that a part of the UK is so out of line with legislation that should cover all UK citizens. Is that angle ever discussed, or does it all just get clogged up with the religious/cultural stuff?

northdownmummy · 07/04/2016 09:55

The human rights stuff is just dragging.
We have a ridiculous system in the NI Assembly where parties can raise a "petition of concern". Which is really just another way of saying, I can't win this argument so I'm taking my ball and going home. None of you can play without me

Shallishanti · 07/04/2016 10:09

This was covered on the Today programme (BBC R4) this morning.
They talked first to one of the flatmates, whose line just seemed to be 'she broke the law, so we had to report her'
Then they spoke to someone from Precious Life and someone else (a pro choice lawyer I think)- the Precious Life woman, again seemed completely hung up on the legal aspect- they have called for a heavier sentence. She seemed quite hard of thinking really and not to understand that the law had been followed to the letter, the poor girl had been tried and found guilty, and sentenced. Then the other woman was saying that public opinion in NI is softening, and that after the next election there may be a chance of relaxing the law. Earlier in the week a NI politician was explaining that they had tried to bring in a bill which would have permitted abortion in some narrow circumstances, but it didn't pass. Ultimately the minds of the legislators have to be changed.

Shallishanti · 07/04/2016 10:13

Sorry, just remembered the lawyer also said that the girl was punished for being poor, as anyone with money and/or connections could get a safe abortion in secret. It sounds like the pg was quite far on , and it was disposal of the fetus that led to her being convicted- perhaps if she had realised straight away she was pregnant and got the pills straight away it couldhave been passed off as a heavy period, so maybe education/awareness was also an issue

PalmerViolet · 07/04/2016 10:14

Was it the awful Bernie Smyth from "precious" life?

And the flatmate has obviously been advised to change her story, because according to their own words, they reported her because she wasn't suitably contrite for their liking.

Shallishanti · 07/04/2016 10:20

not sure who it was, it does look like they have agreed a 'line'- we don't hate women oh, no, we just want to be sure the law is respected

SheldonsSpotOnTheCouch · 07/04/2016 11:28

From the interview with the flatmate : "This isn't anything to do with the rights and wrongs of abortion. I'm not anti-abortion. I believe there are circumstances, like rape, where it should be a woman's choice."

I never understand this standpoint. So only if a woman has endured something as awful as rape does she get the right to make a choice about her own body?

I think, while we're way ahead of NI, there's still this idea that if a woman chooses abortion she should feel a certain amount of shame, remorse, guilt and self-loathing for a long time afterwards.

PalmerViolet · 07/04/2016 11:53

It's about punishing women for choosing to have sex.

If a woman is raped, or a victim of abuse, she is 'absolved' from her responsibility for the conception of the foetus. If she chooses to have sex, enjoys it even, then it's her fault, and she must live with the consequences.

Men, on the other hand, can walk away from that foetus scott free. Hell, men can walk away from children that, at the time, he desperately wanted, with a woman he loved, simply because he gets a better offer, so...

SheldonsSpotOnTheCouch · 07/04/2016 15:25

That makes sense. So is it less about caring about the unborn andbmore about punishing the woman? I always wondered why foetuses conceived through rape were deemed as being less worthy of a life by the 'abortion is wrong unless it was rape' brigade.

In a weird way I have more respect (for want of a much better word) for those who state that abortion's wrong under any circumstances than for those who try to put conditions on when abortion is acceptable and when it's not. If it's truly about the right to life of a foetus then it shouldn't matter how it got there. It's not about that though, is it? And it seems like the person in this article may not have reported the young woman to the police if only she'd been outwardly remorseful.

JustEat314 · 07/04/2016 16:16

absolutely, palmer, why do women bear all the responsibility, blame and shame, and legal risk too!!!

FrozenAteMyDaughter · 07/04/2016 17:03

Absolutely Sheldons. So often, a so-called "pro-life" stance is immediately proved to be nothing about life at all but instead just another way of dividing women into "good" women who only have sex in marriage for procreation or under duress (rape/incest), and "bad" women who have sex by choice and then choose not to live with the consequences. Men can do what they like and get off scot-free.

And most of those who are anti-abortion are also anti-contraception (often even the barrier sort so no possibility that conception might have occurred and then been terminated, which I have seen as an argument against other forms of contraception).

No, it is abstinence only, with the woman, of course, being the only one to suffer if they fail to achieve it.

And now, simply for failing to meet another random person's arbitrary standard of how much remorse she should show, she may also find herself locked up or at the least with a criminal record.

Result.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 16/04/2016 13:42

No idea if it will do any good but there is an Amnesty petition about this. Pitifully low number of signatories.

Northern Ireland: Abortion is not a crime | Amnesty International UK
www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/northern-ireland-abortion-not-crime?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=Mass&utm_campaign=My%20Body%20My%20Rights%20campaign&utm_content=Button1

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 16/04/2016 20:27

I'm not anti-abortion. I believe there are circumstances, like rape, where it should be a woman's choice

I don't understand that either. The logical positions are , it seems to me, to be completely opposed from conception or to be in favour up to full term. Neither position is attractive and the UK mainland has opted for a pragmatic fudge of up to 24 weeks pretty much on demand with potential in extreme cases for late abortion. But abortion in cases of rape is wholly illogical.

How would it work?

Do you have to convince someone you were raped?

To whom? To what level of proof? Would you be obliged to make police report before you could have an abortion?

Why is the foetus less deserving than a feotus conceived in other circumstances?

VestalVirgin · 16/04/2016 20:41

Do you have to convince someone you were raped?

I always wondered about this. Never been able to find out how they actually do it in places where that law exists. I do hope they just believe all women who they they have been raped, but in that case, they could just make it legal for everyone and be done with it.

To me, it seems more logical to abort the pregnancy early on instead of waiting until a rape has been proven (which would take some months, if it happens at all) and then performing a cesarean section on the poor woman, because that point it is too late for medical abortion.

314phone · 16/04/2016 20:47

oh that is ridiculous isn't it, having to 'prove' you've been raped! something like 94% of rapes go unpunished.

SheldonsSpotOnTheCouch · 17/04/2016 12:12

And when they say rape I'm guessing they mean a being-dragged-from-the-street-by-a-stranger type of rape. It would be an extra quick referral if the victim was previously a virgin.

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