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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Has this been shared? National Careers Service "Your Daughter's Future"...

70 replies

NattyGolfJerkin · 24/03/2016 12:35

nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/resourceportal/Resourse%20Portal%20Doc%20Library/Your%20Daughters%20Future.pdf

My DD's school sent me a link to this. The above is a government "toolkit" Hmm to assist with careers decision making for parents of daughters (apparently there isn't one for parents of sons or indeed a generic "parents of a child at this stage" version).

In some aspects there are positives in that it discusses myth busting the idea of girls/boys jobs, role modelling, sexism in the workplace and strategies in how to support your child and build self esteem.

However, some of the language is a bit Hmm and most of the messages are just as valuable for parents of boys. Shouldn't they be getting the message that sexism in the workplace is unacceptable and encouraging boys into "feminine" careers too? Surely the message needs to be delivered to both groups for it to be effective?

Not to mention that the basic information re careers guidance and support is useful whatever the sex of your child. Am I alone in finding this a weird publication?

OP posts:
EBearhug · 28/03/2016 21:31

There's a whole separate argument over whether we should make such a fuss about separating arts and sciences anyway, and whether we specialise too early in education. (Yes, IMO - I was always a good all-rounder and have degrees in history and computer science.)

almondpudding · 28/03/2016 21:43

Lots of subjects benefit from being interdisciplinary, and I definitely think we specialise too early.

MsMermaid · 28/03/2016 22:50

I agree that we specialise too early. I did 4 A levels, which was considered a lot back then, because I wanted to continue with everything. As it was I managed to take a language as an extra to my science subjects, but would have loved to do more English lit, or history. Dd1 is having the same problem, she's having to drop subjects she enjoys and is good at because she's only allowed to choose 4, and she's using two of those on maths.

Dd2 is only 6, but she's absolutely in the middle of being moulded into a "proper" girl. When starting school she wanted dinosaur shoes, so she got them, from the boys section, within weeks she wouldn't wear them because other children told her they were just for boys. She's stopped wanting to wear trousers and dinosaur tops, because they're for boys, even though they were her natural choice before wider society told her they weren't. Now it's all glitter, ponies, fairies, etc.

elementofsurprise · 28/03/2016 22:57

almondpudding You seem to be repeatedly missing my point. I don't know how to make it any clearer. Why does it matter that girls aren't choosing STEM degrees? Why will this mean they are left behind (which is the original comment I was replying to)? It's because we don't value the subjects that girls are choosing, even though they have as much to offer. Maybe you disagree with that, but that was my point.

Also, I was good at STEM subjects in school - in particular chemistry. But I wated to work with people, with human interaction and emotions. I now study psychology. It's clearly more about humans and compassion and so on than maths or chemistry or whatever. It just is, that's not prejudice. And I am closely related to various STEM professionals so don't tell me I don't know anything about it.

noblegiraffe · 28/03/2016 23:24

Why does it matter that girls aren't choosing STEM degrees?

Because the country in general needs more people to study stem subjects as there is a skills shortage. As only a minority of people who work in stem are female, this is an obvious source of potential to fill the gaps.

Aside from that, a lot of stem jobs are more highly paid. If we are allowing bright girls to pursue different paths, they should be advised that they are probably losing future earnings by doing so before they find out for themselves that their degree in History isn't going to cut the mustard in a competitive jobs market.

DadWasHere · 28/03/2016 23:59

Why does it matter that girls aren't choosing STEM degrees?

I would guess because some people make a distinction between equality of gender in a work force and empowerment via work in a particular field, vis 'women as a group will be left behind in economic, political, social and cultural spheres'... unless there are more of them in field X, Y and Z. Like others I think there should be more women in STEM, but I also think there should be more women in Mining (only 18%) and trades (only 2%). On the flip side there should be more men in caring and teaching roles... but that said the climate for male teachers has certainly deteriorated in the last 20 years, here male teachers now receive additional training to make them aware of the increasing probabilities of allegations of inappropriate conduct being brought against them by students, and how to position their conduct for maximum transparency.

almondpudding · 29/03/2016 03:35

I'm not missing your point. I've consistently addressed your arguments.

Yes, it is certainly the case that certain arts disciplines deal with compassion. But then so do certain science disciplines. I would certainly expect some computer scientists working with AI and robotics to have more academic expertise on the nature of compassion and empathy than say, someone studying the History of trade arrangements, because the former may be attempting to create something that can learn about and respond appropriately to human emotions while the latter may be analysing large scale systems.

Either way, I see no evidence that the huge increase over the last twenty years in students doing arts degrees has created a society that is more caring, compassionate or prone to sharing.

And all disciplines involve working with people.

Nobody has argued that arts disciplines are of less value. English Literature, History, Classics, Acting, Philosophy and so on are obviously vital and some people should pursue them. The issue is the numbers of girls not going into STEM, who may be doing arts degrees instead. Presumably you must agree that there must be some number of people who do STEM, and at some point, say if 99, 93 or whatever percent of people decided to do an arts degree, you'd agree we had a STEM shortage. I, and many others, including the government think we've already reached the point now where we have a STEM shortage.

To answer your question about why the low numbers of women in STEM will mean that women are left behind culturally, politically and economically...

We are a technological species. Technology had already been invented before our species evolved. We have never existed without using technology to interact with our environment and survive.

The technology we are using in our current society is highly complex and pervasive. Without an understanding of what it is, how it works, how it changes environments and societies and the ethical questions around that, people cannot contribute to discussion in an informed way about the political, cultural, social and economic future.

They will be left behind.

Except of course we're trying to stop that, for a start by increasing the amount of STEM girls are exposed to long before they get to 14 and start picking options. Because it is fundamental to democracy that everyone is educated about the world we live in.

I also note that various posters from science backgrounds are on here using a range of rational discussion skills and arguments which are the subject matter of the arts - particularly philosophy and politics. Because scientists understand that the arts matter and knowledge and skills from them must be developed post sixteen. But unfortunately, many people fail to develop much knowledge and skills of STEM post sixteen, and that needs to change.

MyCrispBag · 31/03/2016 07:56

almondpudding

Thanks for the post, I agreed with elementofsurprise point and you addressed it really well. I too was good at STEM subjects at school but ultimately chose not to pursue them because they didn't have 'people' in them. I still love statistics and hope to do a part time degree in this for funsies. I point this out because I think statistics is one of the few STEM disciplines were people are in there from the get go. As you point out, I am wrong, all (or most) STEM subject have 'people in them' it's just they are not taught like that at school (or wasn't when I was there).

Anyway I just wanted to post to let you know that you helped me to think about this in a different way. Thank you.

MatildaBeetham · 31/03/2016 08:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

oliviaclottedcream · 31/03/2016 10:07

Excellent post DadWasHere Good points.

noblegiraffe · 31/03/2016 10:37

Like others I think there should be more women in STEM, but I also think there should be more women in Mining (only 18%) and trades (only 2%)

No, I disagree. That's like saying there should be more men in cleaning because it's female dominated. What benefit to a woman is there of getting into mining? Is there a critical shortage of miners which needs addressing?

The benefits of getting more women into STEM are clear, both for the country (critical skills shortage) and for the women who do it (women who have two STEM A-levels can see their lifetime earnings increase by 33% over women who do not).

PalmerViolet · 31/03/2016 10:54

Good points Noble, it he also completely fails to address the fact that both mining and trades are effectively closed shops to women, mostly because while they are skilled manual labour, they don't require graduate qualifications and yet are handsomely remunerated. Whereas skilled manual labour that is traditionally viewed as 'women's work' such as caring isn't.

We might, as a society, hold a plumber and a childcare worker in equal esteem, however, their wage packets will make that esteem hollow.

oliviaclottedcream · 31/03/2016 11:32

So the best thing to do is to go around schools and tell the girls that they need to stop what they're doing, and become a plumber or a brick layer !

Do you suppose that if we had exclusively all women: roof tarmacking crews, concrete layers, bulldozer drivers, loggers, steeplejacks, excavators of natural gas, sewage workers, building site labourers, road diggers, we'd get as-long-a queue of women as we have of men, taking it on themselves to do these sorts of back-breaking, brutal, filthy and dangerous jobs?

Baring in mind 93% of work place injuries and deaths (last time I looked) were men, do you think men would be out in the streets protesting about the erosion of 'male privilege'.

PalmerViolet · 31/03/2016 11:58

Olivia, that was a quote from Dadwashere's post, which you said had good points. Perhaps whine at him about the old and well worn tropes of work place accidents and "erosion of male privilege"?

oliviaclottedcream · 31/03/2016 12:20

Before trying to turn this into a hostile environment, you should try reading a little more carefully and you'll see it's all mine - sorry Smile.

I wonder what the families of those that have died, been paralysed, seriously injured in work place accidents, would think of your assertions about well worn tropes?

PalmerViolet · 31/03/2016 12:44

Well, as a member of a family which has had people die and be seriously injured in work place accidents, I'd say we'd want you to stop using that as a well worn trope, actually. So, now you know.

Not sure it's me that's turning hostile here either, maybe have a read of your posts before pressing the button?

slug · 31/03/2016 12:52

The biggest problem for girls in STEM jobs is boys in STEM jobs in my very extensive and bitter experience.

EBearhug · 31/03/2016 21:34

I think we only have a few people at all working underground these days, but are women still barred from it, as they were by the 1842 Mines Act? I think there are a few mining engineers who are women in Germany who go underground, thinking back to my AS-level (which was only a few years ago, as I did it at evening classes.) But I'm not sure how much of the 1842 Act still stands.

Not that that's particularly relevant, but I can go on about the history of coal mining to almost the same extent I can talk about women in STEM careers.

I agree that boys (and men) in STEM is one of the biggest problems.

cheminotte · 31/03/2016 21:58

It is not just getting girls / wish into Stem, it's making them want to stay. Like those girls doing A level physics, being the only woman in the room / meeting does get tiring.

EBearhug · 31/03/2016 22:19

being the only woman in the room / meeting does get tiring.

It does. A couple of weeks ago, I was in a meeting which was a normal work meeting (i.e. not a women's association one) - and there were more women than men. I think this is the first time I've been in a women-dominated meeting in just short of 20 years working in IT. It's something which shouldn't be at all remarkable - but it was.

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