equal pay

[crappymummy]

This is a thread where I would like to discuss equal pay, for women who are not global superstars, who do not sit on a Board, and are not in the running to head the North American division of their companies.

in my own work, I have not progressed up the pay scale because of taking a maternity leave- my ML came at the end of the year, and only affected one month of that year, but because of that, my employers would not allow me to use any of my work from that year to support a move up the pay scale.

In my current job, pay is incredibly opaque and I have no idea how my pay compares to that of others.

I kind of think that pay transparency would be a good step towards equity- when everyone knows what everyone makes it is harder to justify discrepancies.

What do others think? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts

Come back OP!

I think pay transparency within companies is a huge issue. I think the publishing next year will be very interesting.

I work for a company (in a "normal" non-CEO type role!) where pay is completely opaque.

Because of this opacity, I have asked to see the payscales and been told no.

And yes, generally women go PT/stop work because their salary is lower than their husband's already when they start a family, so it's not the ML that causes it. IMO it's partly men being able to negotiate (because they're expected to negotiate, whereas women are expected to be grateful for crumbs). And men starting further up the scale. And men being more confident, even when it doesn't actually correlate to ability to do the job. And having a family seems to lower women's salary and raise the men's.

Although I did hear that graduate women under 30 now out-earn graduate men under 30, don't know if that's true but I hope it is and that it lasts beyond 30.

not always with a great deal of transparency as to the work that they do

Yes - I worked from home one day last week (because I'd heard the traffic news and knew I had no chance of getting to the office before a 9am call started,) and my manager did comment that he knew he could trust me, not like some of the others. Not entirely sure that's fair or true, but it's his perception, and I don't feel like arguing against one in my favour; I think a lot of pay discrepancies arise because of perceptions rather than there being any effort to review things more objectively, so it's sort of relevant. I just look similarly productive in the office because I waste as much time on MN in either location...

generally women go PT/stop work because their salary is lower than their husband's already when they start a family

Also, until recently, women were entitled to months of paid maternity leave - men got a fortnight of paternity. For most of my friends who have had children, the choice was almost entirely economic, rather than who would be better suited to take a career break at that point. Even if they'd wanted the man to stay home, it wouldn'the work financially.

You know how it's said that men are often paid more because they ask for it, or demand it?

I would love to know what the statistics would be like if it were possible to record instances where people ask for payrises against instances when they actually achieve the payrise. I have a depressing feeling that it would probably show that women are more likely to be turned down if they do ask for more. Because women wanting anything more than the crumbs are so often viewed as too demanding, too hard work, too full of themselves. And also because you just know that if word got out that Ms X had negotiated a payrise, then Mr Y and Mr Z would be knocking on the boss's door next week assuming that he was entitled to one too.

www.themuse.com/advice/looking-for-a-raise-the-cards-may-be-stacked-against-women

That is exactly the case treacle - women do not get the same pay rises men do.

The study of 184 managers, published in the journal Organization Science, showed that when the participants faced a scenario in which they would have to explain raises they were awarding—in other words, prepare to negotiate—they were likely to give men raises two-and-a-half times as large as the raises for female workers of equal skills and experience. This was even before any negotiations would have occurred.

I've never worked in a job with payscales, but I think that transparency is the only way to go. There is a huge taboo about it (I know married couples who don't know what the other earns), but I think it's one that needs to be broken.

There have been a number of articles which show that women who negotiate may well be seen negatively, whereas men who do the same thing are seen as go-getting, which is positive.

It was only about 18 months ago that Microsoft's CEO said women should rely on karma instead of negotiatIng payrises. (That would be Microsoft who are currently in the news for having had "sex schoolgirls" to promote their stand at a gaming show.)

Microsoft's CEO said women should rely on karma instead of negotiatIng payrises.

FFS, seriously? I despair.

Yes
www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/10/microsoft-ceo-satya-nadella-women-dont-ask-for-a-raise

I wonder if Melinda gave him an immediate bollocking.

I got some nice insight to pay transparency when a male colleague, who was my maternity cover for the 16 weeks I was out but stayed after I came back, got made redundant and in somewhat of a snit he dropped in my ear all the details of his paygrade/ salary and the exit redundancy negotiations. Needless to say he was better paid/ one grade higher than me for the same job. We had pretty similar quals- Masters level/ it's professional work and pretty similar length of experience (actually I had a couple of years more experience than him as I did my MSc while working and didn't take so long on the first degree either). I know his full CV as I helped interview him before I went out on maternity! I have longer in the company and more general respect around the business in my area.
The wiggle room is always in the grey area of what exactly constitutes one persons project success. You can take someone whose projects all fail, who falls out with customer and all that can be swept away with excuses such as blaming the bad bits on other people or departments or minimising that it was such a difficult customer, no-one could have possibly done it right... Same with success- not all her results/ it was a group success! It's fairly well proven that women don't get the plaudits for their fair contributions in group scenarios. AND LO! You have what to management looks like real differentials in performance/ experience/ success between men and women. They can with a straight face state they are all for meritocracy and treating people fairly and so on. I'm currently in the process of getting my grade/ salary terms reassessed so we'll see how that goes.

not all her results/ it was a group success!

Oh yes. I was talking about something I had done - and it had been mostly me - and the response I got was, "well, it wasn't just you," followed by a list of other people's minor inputs. I agree that I couldn't have done it without them, but I coordinated it all and did the bulk of the work, and it really felt like I wasn't allowed to take the credit for much of it at all.

I think pay transparency can only be a good thing. I think all companies should have to publish this data - or HMRC should make it publically available . The taboo about revealing your pay is very damaging imo.

Women under 30 do outearn men, but the male in a couple is I think 3 years older on average so that has an impact.