Can I have a link to an article explaining why transwoman are not exactly the same as biological women?

[SusanAndBinkyRideForth]

Please?

I'm on a fb group where someone has just posted that people who think they are the same are hateful and equivalent to Nazis, and hoping there were no such horrible persons in that group. To paraphrase anyway.

Of course noone is going to go, ooh, yes me! I'm such a hateful bigot! But it would be nice to have an article to link to to rcain why "some" people think that.

If I'm brave enough of course....

What sort of article? It's not a wild stab in the dark is it? It's a biological fact, if you've got X & Y chromosomes, you're not a woman.

You could take a look at miranda yardley ' s website. She published some stuff on the trans report recently. And she's a trans woman.

A GCSE biology text book might help.

Because being born a woman with female biology and being born a man who then decides he feels like a woman are clearly different and it shouldn't actually need explaining?

Ask them how babies are made.

Miranda Yardley was who I was trying to remember - thank you :)

Well yes, I know all the above. But the right-on types look on these bio facts as bigotry - so I can eitber completely ignore the thread of everyone agreeing how awful it is, or I can say - well some people think xxxx.
If I do it directly I will be crucified :/

Unless you're really up for having TERF yelled at you, then it's probably not worth the effort.

I have a feeling I know where and who you are talking about. And I just wouldn't bother. They won't listen, they don't listen to anything that challenges their Right On mansplainy-choice-liberal-feninism. It's not worth it.

Females - have their genes encoded by two XX chromosomes.
Males have XY chromosomes. These give rise to the sex characteristics seen and also internally plus the varying amounts of hormones produced.
I also seem to remember that the Y chromosomes contain far less genes.
This is surely seperate to the transgender debate though? Sorry am not that clued up on these things.

you are not going to argue someone out of something they are convinced of, especially where their identity or self worth is predicated on the belief

You might as well go and yell at pigeons tbh

Honestly, you'll just get a whole load of self-righteous people harping on about how you'll 'find yourself on the wrong side of history' and such like. I wouldn't bother. Leave them to their echo chamber.

Incidentally, I find the whole 'wrong side of history' narrative really troubling. It's a real power play to distract from the actual argument, and to dress up some quite regressive positions as progressive. And, actually, I think future generations will look back at this special snowflake identity politics bollocks and think it utterly ridiculous. But there's absolutely no point in telling the social media SJWs that.

It's a noble cause OP, but I fear that people who call biology bigotry, aren't going to be up for a rational discussion.

you might as well go and tell at pigeons

Never a truer word was spoken. And at least the pigeons wouldn't mansplain feminism and 'problematic opinions' at you.

:(

You're right. I won't win

Why can't people accept that equality of rights and "worth"/status, does not mean we are exactly the same?!

I felt the same as a newbie feminist when trying to explain that yes I accept women are not as physical strong as men, and even accede some other things - while trying to say that we are still equal. Oh that was garbled - hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say (I'm being mithered by a 2yo)

It used to bother me, that what seemed an obvious physical reality, my genitalia, my menstruating, pregnancy etc was all just a construct and the true reality was what I felt my sex was

It seemed like an inversion of reality

i don't know what the answer is but I do know it is pointless to argue

good for them I guess maybe we should have adopted a steamroller approach to feminism in the 70s

biology = bigotry = equals argument by demented fruit loops.

Save your energy Susan.

"maybe we should have adopted a steamroller approach to feminism in the 70s"

Okay, mental image of loads of nasty TERFS with large spanners and oily rags driving traction engines.................but maybe I should keep my own fantasies to myself :-)

I think that Dieseldykes are too modern, I want to be a SteamDyke!

Did you see this?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2588006-great-post-in-reclaiming-woman

Interesting!

Why aren't all these women out campaigning outside schools at the cissexism in biology textbooks? Demanding that the curriculum be changed to the new world order?

Because they don't even fucking believe it themselves, that's why. Well, I hope they don't.

Why can't people accept that equality of rights and "worth"/status, does not mean we are exactly the same?!

Beats me. If women were actually exactly the same as men though, we wouldn't have needed to fight for equality in the first place, would we? We were denied equality on the basis of our biological differences. Not because of what gender we identified with inside our heads.

It may be worth pointing out that gender and sex are two different things OP. From a biological perspective, a woman and a 'trans'woman will be different sexes even if they both adopt similar gender roles.

No-one's going to go 'ohhhh yes! I see it now silly me,' true, because they're practising cognitive dissonance for all they're worth. Maybe it comes from a kindly place, as no-one even us TERFy types wants to see TW unhappy and discriminated against, but let's try and steer thinking back to some kind of reality where we can.

It's worth saying for any on-the-fence lurkers, or anyone who hasn't thought it through, otherwise we're sleepwalking into a place of cult where we all chant mindlessly 'Transwomen ARE women!' with no room for the truths of biology.

There used to be this debate years ago regarding racism, whether it was acceptable to speak of people as black; as though being black were something embarrassing that you had to pretend wasn't there. A far healthier approach is to acknowledge difference whilst accepting that it makes no difference, if that makes sense. Or where it does make a difference, that this is not a bad thing.

Surely pretending a transwoman didn't have to go through a lot to become who they are today is belittling their struggle and success? Should not "trans" be an accepted social norm, if not for some even a source of pride? Are the unique challenges experienced in transitioning and living with the result really best subsumed within another rights movement with a different, though sometimes overlapping, set of problems? Or am I just totally misunderstanding the whole thing? Fair enough to say I wouldn't really "get it" as I am not trans. Which suggests I can't effectively represent someone who is, although I can of course support them and indeed should out of common humanity. If someone's being oppressed, end it. But don't end it by pretending they don't exist.

Am still thinking this issue through, though, and may come to a different conclusion in time.