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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Recording rape culture

91 replies

BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces · 03/03/2016 07:42

I'd like to use this thread to record examples of rape culture - when individuals, the media, or both, minimise rape and sexual assault.

It's rarer now to see a headline about a "romp" and find it describes a rape, but some commentators still leave a lot to be desired.

I hope this will be a long running thread, as with the Victims of Violence thread, to note examples.

I will start with two below.

OP posts:
Daisyonthegreen · 04/03/2016 16:55

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3476426/German-swimming-pool-two-migrant-sex-attacks-carried-says-forced-segregate-men-women.html

This sadly a result of a rape culture.Western women have fought long and hard for freedom and now this is changing things.

LilacSpunkMonkey · 04/03/2016 17:00

daisy, I know you're new but you seem to be worryingly focused on attacks on Western women by foreign men.

Any chance you can engage with the other posters? What are your thoughts on Adam Johnson?

WomanWithAltitude · 04/03/2016 17:07

Daisy, I don't believe rape culture is limites to other countries or other cultures. Rape culture is alive and well in the UK - do a search on FB for 'Adam Johnson' and look at what people are posting about his victim. It's shocking and appalling, the level of vitriol and abuse directed towards a young girl.

Nobody says this sort of thing about the Rotherham grooming victims (or if they have, I haven't seen it), but I guess the difference is that AJ is a popular figure, a talented and good looking footballer, so he can do no wrong.

In actual fact what he did was no different to what the groomers did in Rotherham, Oxford, Rochdale etc... He targeted a child, flattered her, gave her attention, made her feel she owed him, and exploited her sexually. But people are queueing up to defend him and vilify her.

WomanWithAltitude · 04/03/2016 17:11

I should clarify what I said - obviously people in authority dismissed the grooming victims in Rochdale etc. as 'child prostitutes' at the time, with damaging results (another symptom of rape culture).

However, since the prosecutions and various reports bringing the crimes to light, the public has pretty much universally condemned the men. FB isn't awash with posts demonising the victims in Rochdale and making excuses for the perpetrators.

LilacSpunkMonkey · 04/03/2016 17:15

Spot on, Woman. Where are the Internet searches for the Rotherham victims real names and photos? Where are the people trying to out them for 'tempting' the men involved? Yet that's what the convicted rapist Cheddar Evans' victim and the convicted child abuser Adam Johnson's victim have to live with.

Sickening, isn't it?

PalmerViolet · 04/03/2016 17:20

Interestingly, since it turned out that some of the attackers in Koln weren't asylum seekers, a proportion of Twitter chatter which had been supportive of the women stopped and became, as usual, about how women lie about sexual assault and rape.

Couldn't have seen that one coming, no siree.

WomanWithAltitude · 04/03/2016 17:25

Really? Wow. Sad

BertrandRussell · 04/03/2016 17:26

A young relation of mine got a series of unprovoked sexually explicit texts from a man she had met once and was planning to go out with again. When she protested he texted "Stop pretending to be an uptight bitch". Which seems to me to be a classic example of the "you know you want to really" mentality. "Yes means yes and no means maybe"

BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces · 04/03/2016 17:30

Sad Bertrand. Personal examples are good as well as media links.

OP posts:
Daisyonthegreen · 04/03/2016 17:41

I am not on FB so won't be viewing it.
The thread is titled Recording rape culture.
I will happily comment but posting links is crucial so women can see examples from newspapers.
If this is a PC forum that wants to ignore rape by foreign men on Western women because of their cultural view and if you want to ignore it then shame on you all.
My thoughts on any rapist assaulting a woman is repugnance.

cadnowyllt · 04/03/2016 17:45

Chedwyn

BertrandRussell · 04/03/2016 17:53

"I will happily comment but posting links is crucial so women can see examples from newspapers.
If this is a PC forum that wants to ignore rape by foreign men on Western women because of their cultural view and if you want to ignore it then shame on you all."

All the links you have posted have been linked to before. Why do you think we are ignoring it? One thread about it went, I think, to 8 sections- that's 8000 posts. And there were plenty of other threads.

Daisyonthegreen · 04/03/2016 18:05

These posts are current today ,published today.
You cannot muzzle debate.That usually is what authority does.

PalmerViolet · 04/03/2016 18:08

Daisy, why are you so determined to see whatever women write on here that doesn't immediately accord with you as muzzling debate.

No one is muzzling debate on this thread apart from you.

BertrandRussell · 04/03/2016 18:09

Sorry, yes they are. I thought I recognized them from earlier.

Who is muzzling debate? As I said, 8000 posts doesn't sound very muzzled.........

BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces · 04/03/2016 18:09

Umm, Daisy, not sure what your beef is?

Anyone can start a thread on anything on MN. I chose to start this on the back of the Adam Johnson reactions one day then the next seeing the article about the attempted sexual assault in a hotel.

I called it "recording rape culture" expecting it to be mostly examples and some discussion. There are lots of threads already discussing cologne and I linked to them upthread to help you.

I very much want personal examples, info from FB, things people saw on TV or whatever as well as news stories, so please don't tell other posters that links are crucial. Thanks.

OP posts:
LilacSpunkMonkey · 04/03/2016 19:41

Yes, I know the convicted rapist Ched Evan's full name is Chedwyn. I wrote 'Ched', my tablet autocorrected to 'Cheddar'.

But thanks for your riveting contribution, Cadnow. Anything pertinent to bring to the discussion apart from pointing out my autocorrect?

I love how asking someone why they're concentrating on 'foreign' attackers is seen as 'muzzling debate' when there have been something like 11 threads on the Cologne attacks on this site alone. Also, I tend to read someone calling someone else 'pc' to mean 'I want to be offensive and you're not letting me'.

We're discussing all forms of rape culture on this thread. And the most recent one is the case of convicted child abuser Adam Johnson, so excuse us if we focus on the assault of a 15 year old girl. Also current and also happened right here in the UK.

Daisyonthegreen · 04/03/2016 19:55

BareFootAccrossHotLeg
You yourself allude on this thread to Cologne on March3rd. 16 08:21:04

Lurcio of also alludes to Cologne on March 3rd 16 08:12:08

If don't want any mention whatsoever on the rapes and assaults in Cologne on this thread you should have made your thread more specific.
You should also not have mentioned it yourself on here.
Which you did .
As your readership here is so abrasive I shall not return or look at this thread again.

PalmerViolet · 04/03/2016 19:58

Lilac... cheddar is also a name used for him because idiots search for his actual name so they can go and troll. Especially now that the rapist is going to appeal. (so I kinda thought you'd done it deliberately)

BertrandRussell · 04/03/2016 20:04

"If don't want any mention whatsoever on the rapes and assaults in Cologne on this thread you should have made your thread more specific."

What on earth are you talking about?

cadnowyllt · 04/03/2016 20:04

Cadno

Peyia · 04/03/2016 20:15

Daisy I'm also new(ish) and at times feel people shut the debate down, in a rude manner. I don't think anyone has done that to you here. To be fair you said you couldn't believe there had not been any discussion on Cologne and you were pointed to a thread were the discussion is dedicated to that, thousands of pages worth. That's people being nice, trust me!

I'm appalled at Match.com Are they liable to the victims? Can't believe they never acted on the reports.

Peyia · 04/03/2016 20:20

It disturbs me how rape is televised. I had to turn GoT's off on that particular episode. Why show it/write it into the story? It didn't add anything and left me angry.

Despite it being fiction there are lost souls that think women are there for them to use/take. Particularly their partner.

LilacSpunkMonkey · 04/03/2016 20:29

Oh, you're just stirring now Daisy and making yourself look pretty silly to boot.

Nowhere on this thread has anyone said they don't want to discuss the Cologne attacks. People have repeatedly pointed out that there are multiple threads about the Cologne attacks. You have accused people of being PC and trying to shut down debate.

Palmer, clearly my tablet is aware of his nickname and changed it for me to keep trolls out! Grin

LurcioAgain · 04/03/2016 20:45

##D+-'aisy - I mentioned+
Cologe in response to your post, because you ask. It (and responses to it) were part of, but not the whole story about rape culture.

Here's (roughly) what I put on one of the earlier threads on Cologne in the feminism section: it is possible to accept that taharrush gamea is a new phenomenon (and additional pile of shit dumped on women) that hasn't featured in western Europe in recent history (though one can point to mass rapes of German women by Soviet soldiers at the end of WW2, and to mass rapes of Bosnian women in the Balkan crisis); and also think that it shines a spotlight on a pre-existing, institutionalised rape culture in the indigenous culture (in this case article 177 of the German penal code, and the responses of the police, police chief and mayor of Cologne); and note that the same people in the right wing press jumping up and down about Cologne (quite rightly, but I would argue for dubious motivations) a week earlier were writing articles minimising attacks by white frat boys on American campuses, or writing articles saying date rape isn't proper rape. In addition to those points, I'd also say that it's been a gift to the far right (who aren't exactly known for their stellar record on women's rights). And I'd say that your pc points carry some weight (the Guardian, for instance, is still wilfully misreporting the number of attacks as only 100).

However, this thread is about a much wider phenomenon - sure, it encompasses women's rights being thrown under the bus when they conflict with the left's pet concerns of racism (Cologne, Rotherham) but it also encompasses the way the right is quite happy to reach for victim blaming as soon as the perpetrator is a "well to do white chap like one of us".

Common thread - women are bottom of the heap. I think it was Dworkin who said "the right sees women as the personal property of individual men, the left sees women as the collective property of all men."

Your continued insistence on limiting this thread to events in Cologne does look like derailing. It is not that we want to silence discussion of Cologne - but we want a much broader discussion. If I was a German woman, the questions I would be asking wouldn't so much be about the culture of the perpetrators but about "why is our law on sexual assault out of kilter with the rest of Europe to the extent that Germany cannot sign up to international conventions on preventing violence against women because it conflicts with the (overly weak) stance in German law?" and "why the hell didn't the police actually, you know, police the situation?"

Incidentally I didn't sign the petition because it was a wishy-washy "we are outraged and demand someone does something" statement, with no actual content. If I was in Germany, I'd sign a petition saying "rewrite article 177 to make no mean no and get rid of the concept of presumed consent." In this country, I'd sign a petition to revamp our laws round, say, the age of consent, such that for any child under 16, if the sexual partner was over 16 and the age gap between parters was greater than two years, the older partner was automatically prosecuted without regard to whether the victim had supposedly "consented" or not. If we can have laws round alcohol usage that put the onus on the retailer to check age, I don't see why we can't have similar for sexual assault of children.