surrogacy, Julie Bindel is right, it is human rights abuse

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www.byline.com/project/43/article/820
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I have to say I didn't realise that surrogate clinics existed to provide service to rich foreigners.
It is exploitation on many levels.

Wicked lazy that does not mean 69,000+ were up for adoption, being in care and being up for adoption are two very different things.

Mycrisp yes I will happily contradict what lost in said, with all due respect I know better as I'm a surrogate, lost in is an IP. I do have basis for my claims since I'm heavily involved in surrogacy and have been for a few years I also know hundreds of other surrogates and IPs .

You can poo poo my experiences as much as you like but I know far more about it all than you! You obviously are determined that all surrogates are overpaid their expenses and that they don't deserve them and that the expenses are rising, that's your misinformed opinion but I won't argue any longer as you clearly feel (as an outsider!) you are correct and whatever I say you will say my info has no basis or some shit. Whatever.

Mycrisp yes I will happily contradict what lost in said, with all due respect I know better as I'm a surrogate, lost in is an IP.

So? Why does that make you know any better?

I do have basis for my claims since I'm heavily involved in surrogacy and have been for a few years I also know hundreds of other surrogates and IPs .
Let's imagine for a second that I actually believe you how the fuck would you know how much they are all forking out/being paid? You wouldn't. All these hundreds of people happily discuss their finances with you? All of them honest?

You can poo poo my experiences as much as you like but I know far more about it all than you!

I agree that you do but you are also so nonobjective and have such a poor understanding of data your judgement is worth very little.

You obviously are determined that all surrogates are overpaid their expenses and that they don't deserve them and that the expenses are rising

From where the fucking hell did you draw this conclusion?

that's your misinformed opinion

No it's your lack of reading comprehension.

*"They run to an average of about £15 000 but that figure is rising."

From a poster who also claims to have experience of surrogacy.*

If that was a shot at me I've missed the point entirely. I have personal experience of surrogacy as an IP - have talked about it on other threads. It's worked for us from every angle, for all of us.

I'm not a regular on the feminism board and I have to say, I'm surprised by the naivete about some of these issues. Yes, there are many unadopted children in Britain. The problem (although I hate using that word) is that they often have additional needs (usually because they are older and have come through a hard time) and it's harder to be a parent to them, so, quite rightly, being approved is a demanding process. Many people don't have a chance to adopt who would nevertheless make wonderful parents in a more traditional sense.

I'm not really disagreeing with miracles, BTW. Surrogate's expenses do vary widely. I haven't seen figures on what the norm is for expenses and I do think what's normal varies according to who you know. I have read that judges are more routinely signing off on figures around the 12-15 mark, but I can't remember where and who is to say it is correct. There certainly are plenty of surrogates claiming much, much less.

How would I change the law? Well, relating to surrogacy only, I'd take the surrogate's partner out of the equation entirely. He has no legal connection to the child whatsoever, at any stage. I would be in favour of outlawing 'traditional' or 'straight' surrogacy (as in India) because it's difficult to imagine legislating for it in the way I think gestational surrogacy should be regulated (i.e., when the child isn't related to the surrogate). Basically, if you want to have a child of your own, then you should have a child of your own. If you're going to make an agreement with another couple, to carry their child and to go through IVF and have the embryo transferred and all the rest of it, there should be clarity that the baby being born at the end will not belong to the surrogate in any way at all. No one is forcing anyone into surrogacy, but if you're going to do it, there should be legal protection ensuring that the agreement is kept to. Otherwise it becomes hopelessly messy for everyone, but most particularly the child. Most surrogates would agree with this (and in fact would agree with it for straight surrogacy, which seems to be equally popular with surrogates, if not more popular than gestational surrogacy, because there is no faffing with medication). So I would simply make a legal contract a requirement and make it legally binding. I.e., no going back.

miracles

I really wouldn't bother getting cross. There seems to be a lack of information about so many different issues on this board, the true cost of pregnancy is only one of many. I know, and every IP knows, that pregnancy is damn expensive

"the true cost of pregnancy is only one of many. I know, and every IP knows, that pregnancy is damn expensive"

You do realise you're on a parenting board, and most of us have been pregnant, and know how much it costs (very little if you use nhs), vitamins, pregnacy pillow, some maternity clothes etc. It's preparing for the baby coming, and once baby is born that uses up most peoples money. But a surrogate has no need to provide anything at all for the baby. And of course there are women here who have paid a fortune for multiple cycles of IVF, perhaps more than they would have paid a surogate in expenses.

Middlemarch
No surrogate knows at the beginning of the pregnancy how they will feel at the end of the pregnancy.
I don't care how messy you think it is. It's wrong to take a baby from its mother because someone else thinks they should have it.
If we allow this and make it legally binding we are literally making women incubators and saying that motherhood means absolutely nothing.

*sorry a surrogate who began pregnant on first attempt, plus expenses.

oh ffs became*

lost

"If that was a shot at me I've missed the point entirely."

It genuinely wasn't. Miracle asked where the figure came from.

Haven't read the rest of the post yet but wanted to clear that up straight away.

I almost didn't want to post this as it was so distressing but it highlights a point about commodification.

m.smh.com.au/national/named-the-australian-paedophile-jailed-for-40-years-20130630-2p5da.html

Sorry Lost but your law ideas genuinely disgust me I would actively campaign against any such changes. commodifying children, commodifying womens bodies, changing the nature of British family law to put "IPs" front and centre rather than the child. Urgh.

As for the true cost of pregnancy. I didn't even have 15k total income during my first pregnancy and I had to support myself and kit out a house ready for a baby. That figure is fucking nonsense, I accepted it until I realised that it didn't count things for the baby. Paying for loss of earnings seems to wander dangerous close to just paying for an incubator.

Miracle

Please don't take my second paragraph to mean that I think surrogates are money grabbing/lying etc, I absolutely do not think this. My problem is that as soon as this becomes a market (which it possibly already has) then everything is fucking terrible and will only get worse.

Well it should be legally binding and we will see what happens with the reforms, I think the majority saying yes will mean that pre birth orders may become a thing. Not sure there's anything that the general public can do about that or whether it will be up for public consulatation if you think that means women are incubators then that's your view and no one can change that. I don't and never have felt like a incubator....a hardcore babysitter maybe lol...

I will say again you cannot compare a surrogate pregnancy to a pregnancy that is your own, most people wouldn't take life insurance out or make wills or have a non invasive paternity test or "indulge" in multiple appts to health practitioners, or have to pay for medical screening, or dbs....bit sick of repeating myself with this one now.

Reading back through the thread I think most of the Vitirol is almost a jealousy, just because you don't think you could do it, doesn't mean other people can't. I still maintain that if a women is unsure if she could do it, she shouldn't even contemplate the idea of being a surrogate, it's a recipe for disaster.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the surrogacy world is without problems and yes you're probably right, there is already a market. It's surrogates that do it repeatedly almost without breaks in between that I personally don't agree with and in the surrogacy community we try and strongly discourage people from doing that, in a fairness though there is only a small handful of people out there who will or have done it more than three times.

think the majority saying yes will mean that pre birth orders may become a thing

Having studied family law and the principles behind it I would be fucking gobsmacked if that happened. Mind you I am gobsmacked a lot lately by the way the law goes so...

Vitirol is almost a jealousy, just because you don't think you could do it

Do you think all women have a secret desire to be pregnant? Or give away a baby? What aspect do you think we wish we were able to do?

I actually managed to find some data regarding 'compensation' for surrogates. A survey carried out by/on behalf of Surrogacy UK found that

"104 (95.4%) [surrogates interviewed] received compensation for being a surrogate. 29 (27.1%) of these received less than £10,000, while 73 (68.2%) received £10-15,000 and five (4.7%) received £15-20,000. No-one said they received any more than that."

To be fair though I am so far unimpressed with the credibility of the report.

www.familylaw.co.uk/system/froala_assets/documents/27/Surrogacy_in_the_UK_report.pdf

It's there if anybody is interested.

I will say again you cannot compare a surrogate pregnancy to a pregnancy that is your own, most people wouldn't take life insurance out or make wills or have a non invasive paternity test or "indulge" in multiple appts to health practitioners, or have to pay for medical screening, or dbs....bit sick of repeating myself with this one now.

With the exception of the paternity test for obvious reasons, those are all things that I've had to do for previous jobs (plus professional indemnity insurance, professional body memberships etc).

You're not helping this sound like an altruistic sacrifice when you're claiming expenses which anyone else would pay for to do a job (or just live - I have life assurance and wills personally, independent of my job - that's a life expense, not a carrying a baby expense).

"Reading back through the thread I think most of the Vitirol is almost a jealousy"

😂 Are you for real?

Starting to think you are a commercial surrogate, in it for the money, and that's why you're being so defensive.

it certainly sounds commercial to me. How many surrogates are in paid employment? I note that you say loss of earnings can relate to 'delaying employment' so you can claim for what you could be earning if you had a job which you don't actually have. Isn't it quite likely that people are acting as surrogates because they can't get or don't want a job, rather than choosing it as career break activity?

Why do you need life insurance? Just out of interest?

I would assume to compensate her family in the event of death in childbirth?

DrSeussRevived

Does life insurance go up when you are pregnant? If so my life insurance must have been void during my pregnancy. Oops.

My crisp not at all but I do feel like you feel other people shouldn't have a desire to "give away a baby" either.

As I said before not many women could do it and that does make us kind of special,I'm very proud to of been a surrogate and nothing anyone's says will take that away from me.

I will ask again as no one answered the first time,
what exactly do you all think a surrogates expenses should be?
And what do you think they should they include/exclude??

I really don't understand what you are all getting at other than the fact you think the surrogate should shoulder all the costs?

I am not a commercial surrogate! My expenses were far lower than the average.in it for the money...yes of course, that's why I'm still wearing clothes I've had for yrs, driving around in my 2005 plate car, not had a holiday in 5 yrs etc etc
I'm defensive because I don't like misinformed people tearing surrogacy apart all the time, horror stories get shown in the media and surrogacy gets seen in a terrible light and given very bad press meanwhile the hundreds of amazing births every year go on unnoticed.

what exactly do you all think a surrogates expenses should be?
And what do you think they should they include/exclude??

Honestly, right now at this moment I don't think it should be legal at all.

I really don't understand what you are all getting at other than the fact you think the surrogate should shoulder all the costs?

Really? Even after I specifically answered this question a little way up the page?

Please don't take my second paragraph to mean that I think surrogates are money grabbing/lying etc, I absolutely do not think this. My problem is that as soon as this becomes a market (which it possibly already has) then everything is fucking terrible and will only get worse.

there is a special life insurance for surrogates and as its fixed term it costs more than standard ongoing insurance.

Why do I need life insurance? To provide for my children had I died in pregnancy/childbirth/postnatal period.

lostinmiddlemarch - Please show (quote) where exactly I have been "so rude". I just asked Making about what surrogates are paid in general, and what she was paid. No problem is she does not want to say, but it is in no way rude to ask these questions to someone who has personal experience of surrogacy.

Btw I was puzzled by your personal attack until I remembered that you employ this "Are you always so rude" passive-aggressive line as a means to shut people up. Here, for example. Please don't.

"Expenses can be anywhere from nothing up to £18 000"

I don't know if you have ever gone through pregnancy and given birth, but that 18K is between 50-100 times the realistic cost of a pregnancy & birth, especially in the UK where NHS is free at the point of delivery.

If you disagree, do educate us. What are the costs of a pregnancy & birth, in your opinion?