Stupid male friend. sorry.

[FuzzyDucker]

I'm sorry, I've posted about this before (possibly under a different name) but I need somewhere to write it down.

I posted about a male friend who had started to blank myself and my dp last summer, over no apparent major reason. The advice was we were better off without him as he is a sexist git, and it was good advice, but he is/was my dp's best friend and we were very close so when he started chatting to us again we allowed him to come back into our friendship circle without giving him the third degree about it.

However my DP and him have had a heart to heart today and he explained that he didn't like how I would comment - in a snidey way - when he told us all about his love life. He has always told us, graphically, about his dates, good bad and ugly. Sometimes he has funny stories, other times they're sad, and some of the time he makes sexist, misogynistic comments. I pull him up on these, and yes sometimes my replies could be rude. We used to sit until the early hours with a glass of wine or three and I'd be honest when I told him what I thought of his comments about some women. I was always honest. I never tried to be mean to him, but I agree it could be seen as unpleasant. Dp said I should have been more tactful or sensitive, I disagree. This man was my close friend, none of my friends get away with sexism in the way that he comes out with it, I would have said the same to a female friend. Why should I be sensitive when he was not? He knew my feelings on the matter.

The other reason was that he and my dp used to 'go out and have fun' by which he doesn't mean lads nights out, he means their little adventures when they were unemployed/self employed and had time to go for bike rides or spontaneous adventurous trips. This has slowed down as they've both got proper jobs, my dp has his own business and me and our DC, they don't have the time to do these things because they're both always at work or busy. In short he's realised that we're all growing up (we're mid twenties fgs, I personally feel like I've been grown up since I was 13 when I got my first job but my friend went to uni and then dossed around so I suppose it's only just hitting him now) and can't do 'fun stuff' any more. (bollocks).

Anyway. The 'final straw' was when I pulled him up on his comment that I 'wouldn't let' my dp out for a lads night (long story, but I had a prior commitment on that night that was more important, and my dp wasn't invited out until 5pm). Apparently me saying 'oi, why'd you say that? you know i'm not like that' in front of his friends (two other people in our friendship group) was 'humiliating' and he decided then he didn't want to see me for a while.

I can't process all of this. I can understand that he has only just adjusted to being an adult (kind of) and he was lamenting for days of youth lost... But I don't see why HE can voice his (Sexist) opinions and I'M the one who has to be 'sensitive'? I told DP I wouldn't be sensitive because I expect to treat him like the FUCKING GROWN UP that he is and not pander around his feelings when he's talking out of his arse. Am I wrong? Should I be more tactful?

I find it hard to vocalise my own feelings without getting too emotional and don't feel I can talk to my friend about this.

I now feel like I will never be able to have an honest conversation with this friend as I will constantly have to monitor what I'm about to say, and I don't feel that's right. My views aren't extremist or offensive (are they? No they're not).

BUT my DP seems to think it's all in the past now and we can move on. Also that I was a bit harsh mentioning the 'not letting him out' thing in front of other friends. and that I could be more sensitive with my views. WHY IS IT MY FAULT???

So sorry to have ranted here but I can't think of anywhere else. I expect you'll tell me (if you've read it all) to LTB as it were and just not be friends with him, but I can't cut him out of my life completely. My dp likes him and wants to see him. He's invited to our wedding.

after blanking you and dp, he decides to be friendly again- only not so friendly to you ,op. What he said re you not allowing dp to go out with him is beyond rude and your dp is taking his side and blaming you? You have a dp problem as a real dp wd take your side and tell this git he is out of line. Do you think your dp agrees with him?

Fuck that for a bowl of granola.

Your "mate" sounds like a train crash. You and your DP are well rid.

I do not understand this attitude that men are carte blanche able to be derogatory, rude, as part of their "makeup" and we shouldn't offend them by calling it out.

Call it out! The consequences are not your fault.

Oh sorry, what? He's going to your wedding?
Well you'll need to tell him,
"Don't be so rude to me in the first place, then I won't react".

I remember your thread.

Why is it "humiliating" for him for you to respond to his criticism of you with " oi, I'm not like that"? Humiliating is stuff like "remember when you threw up on your boss!" Not a mild self defence by a friend in front of other friends.

Would your DP think it humiliating if a male friend had done similar to dickhead friend?

This "friend" is a misogynist and he can't stand a woman challenging his sexist comments. That's why he has a problem with you.

But the problem is actually your DP. He should be taking your side, sticking up for you, and challenging the "friend" himself. The fact that he isn't doing this is very worrying.

The guy clearly has no respect for you (or any women for that matter), so he doesn't deserve to be at your wedding. It's a shame your DP doesn't see it that way.

Any particular reason you posted this in Feminism and not Relationships, btw?

Would your DP put up with him being racist/ablist/homophobic in other contexts?

Are there any other women in this friendship group?

We uninvited one of DH's colleagues from our wedding because he turned out to be a raving misogynist. I hadn't wanted to invite him in the first place because I never liked him (I had my suspicions about the misogyny) and then one night in the pub he started up with a load of what about the menz bollocks when a feminist subject came up.

Thank you all. I didn't even think of posting it in relationships honestly, I was discussing it with DP and the discussion was heavily feminist so I came here.

Do is ok, but he's a standard middle class white male who doesn't really see quite how much male privilege he has. We discussed everyday feminism and cumulative effect of many repeated sexist comments/situations/jokes and he understands... Kind of. He said if people tell sexist jokes then others may or may not be offended, so it's not an offensive thing unless someone is offended... I said that was victim blaming. He didn't get it. I said then such jokes should only be told if you know your audience, but really not at all because even jokes change people's thinking/stereotyping. So he said we shouldn't really joke about Irish people, red heads, blondes etc. I said no, because it's picking on a minority group and making assumptions etc. So he said no one could really tell jokes then.

Anyway, dp is not a misogynist and he doesn't tell sexist jokes, coerce me into sex or think my place is in the kitchen. If he was ever to imply that sort of thing he'd get called out by me. BUT I'm not convinced he's a feminist/really understands what it is that I object to that much about society.

As such I think he sees it more as me upsetting his friend, rather than me calling out unacceptable misogyny. I explained that I didn't feel the need to reign in my views when friend would not reign in his, and if he was being a cunt he deserved to be told. DP said that was fair, yet when I did that I was the bad guy?

Eventually DP said I should turn around and say "how would you feel if she did/said that to you?" Rather than "you're being a cunt" because then friend might understand rather than just feel told off .

He doesn't go on about men's rights or anything too extreme, it's just his attitude towards women he claims to like occasionally suggests to me he doesn't like them and is in fact using them for sex/thinks he's far superior to them/is a misogynist. Everyday sexism.

I've told DP we can still be friends but that I prefer to see him in a group (there are other women in his friendship circle) and we should avoid sensitive topics, but that I will call him out if he says something I find offensive.

Re sexist jokes, I've had similar conversations with DH. I made the point, and he agrees, that if someone has to pick on a minority to get a laugh, they're not being very funny. A sexist/racist/otherwise offensive joke is a cheap joke and it's not original or clever. I prefer comedians (and people) who mock themselves, or situations, or famous people (but not because of their sex, disability) etc etc. I do enjoy irreverent and un-PC humour (love Cards Against Humanity for example) but you don't have to tell sexist/racist/other discriminatory jokes to be "edgy". It just makes you another unoriginal, unfunny bigot person.

Exactly, Emma.

DH used to have a friend like this who was racist, sexist and had a real problem with me because I'm confident, intelligent and have opinions. I'd also pull him up on racist or sexist comments and he used to complain to DH about it. DH's response was to shrug and tell him to get over it or talk to me directly if he had a problem with me instead of whingeing behind my back. Of course, he never did.

He did fall out with DH once or twice because he blamed me for something that was nothing to do with me, and DH told him he was being a twat. I was always very careful never to try and stop DH seeing him but friend still tried to pretend to everyone that DH was under the thumb. It was absolutely pathetic. They have now fallen out permanently over some ridiculous argument about a motorbike and DH finally told friend he'd had enough of him.

OP, the way Mother's DH reacted to his friend is the way your partner should be reacting to his.

I couldn't work this out from the context, but did this "friend" make the comment about DH not being allowed out in front of people? If so I don't see how you rounding on him and embarrassing him in front of anyone is any different.

That said if you are genuinely friends shit needs to be sorted one on one. If someone I know and genuinely liked came out with something overtly racist if point it in an earnest one on one moment.

If it's someone I wasn't overly fond of then it becomes about the general social landscape I like to be in, which needs to be free of mysogyny, sexism and general asshattery.

On a personal note sounds like you have been trying to actually help him. If his track record with women is so abysmal, it's probably down to his attitude towards women, which quality women will pick up and give a wide berth.

Rather than "you're being a cunt" because then friend might understand rather than just feel told off

I wouldn't expect anyone to say "your being a cunt" even if the other person was being a cunt. I would just think you were being bolshy, extremely rude & offensive - just because he sinks to that behaviour doesn't mean you need to as well. by also saying you are going to call him out all the time makes it seem like your always spoiling for an argument if someone disagrees with you. there are ways and means of calling people out by saying "your a cunt" isn't the way to win friends and influence people.

last sentence was meant to say but not by.

I'd always say don't use insulting words about anyone, unless there's open warfare going on. (And "cunt" is especially problematic.)

It might be better to say "There's always trouble when we get together with Fred. It's probably better if you see him when I'm not around, unless it's a big group of people."

I had this nonsense with my BIL. I repeatedly told him not to be racist in my (and DH's) place. He carried on until I really had to tell him in front of others. He then went crying to my SIL (DH's DSis) saying how I'd hurt his feelings.

It was a bit of a turning point because DH knew I was that way inclined but didn't know I wouldn't compromise. I said that I liked him but no, there wouldn't be any apology from me not should there be. And yes, next time he said anything racist or sexist I would do the exact same.

Same with DH's lovely but damaged best friend. Massive issues with women. Massive. I like him but it's taken years of me being very bounderied with him and pulling him up on his bullshit every time. Now, I get a 'pass' and can talk how I please. Odd because he still thinks other women are dreadful to pull him up on things.

It's such hard work when people could just be decent human beings to start with.

"It's such hard work when people could just be decent human beings to start with."

THIS!