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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

touchy feely guys

72 replies

lorelei9 · 12/01/2016 12:04

This is more of a rant than anything else, so I hope it’s all right to post it here.

I know my neighbours quite well – I live in a small block of flats. There is an elderly guy who moved in fairly recently. He’s the sort of person, if he bumps into you at the shops, he will say “how are you?” and squeeze your arm and want to chat for ages. I found it annoying from the start but not annoying enough to speak up. I also find him annoying generally. He seems to hang around at high traffic times for people going in and out. I commented once and he said “well I’m lonely”. I’ve also noticed he always compliments other female residents as well.

Over Christmas and New Year, he managed to do the whole greeting thing to give me a kiss on the cheek. I did find that annoying and after thinking it over I decided to say something. I see him around a lot and I just don’t want every occasion to be a “greet with a kiss” type, you know?

I encountered him and another (male) neighbour this morning. He immediately went to put his arm round me and the other neighbour said “oh stop putting your arm round everyone, it’s annoying and look, she’s trying to rush to the station”.

So the touchy feely neighbour said to me “what? You don’t mind do you?” and I said “yes, I do mind, we don’t know each other from a bar of a soap and you need to stop touching me. I’m off to work now”.

Touchy feely guy then made an awkward joke as I was walking away. The second neighbour made a face at me which I couldn’t interpret. If I see him again soon, I will ask him why he made that comment – it might have been a crazy banter joke but I saw it as a good opportunity to make my feelings known. But I suspect I am right – Mr touchy feely has been annoying more people than just me.

It’s depressing but at the ripe old age of 40, I realise that a) these men are like that and will touch anyone they can! And b) it won’t stop, will it? I used to think this would go away as I got older, but it just doesn’t. So I have to find a tactic or perhaps be more conscious so I say the first time “don’t touch me”. But honestly, I didn’t initially mind a neighbour greeting me with a squeeze of the arm or shoulder. More fool me?

I’m wondering how others handle it. What do you say and when do you say it? Do you politely say, the first time, “please don’t touch me?” I find that men like this “don’t” read obvious body language – I’m sure they can, but they don’t. So you try to shrink away and they don't register it.

any advice? Thanks.

OP posts:
Cleensheetsandbedding · 18/01/2016 15:05

Can you point out where in that post I've said the op must allow him to touch her even if she didn't want to?

YouthHostellingWithChrisEubank · 18/01/2016 15:07

Huh? I was replying to your 14.51 post.

YouthHostellingWithChrisEubank · 18/01/2016 15:08

Ie, we should just feel sorry for someone like this who lacks boundaries because they're not an actual sex pest!

Cleensheetsandbedding · 18/01/2016 15:09

armam please stay out of an elderly persons home/unit as half the clients will be classed as perverts. Men and women.

It's absolutely fine that op did not like her arm to be touched OR want a Xmas kiss. But often elderly folk do touch an arm, pull you in to speak closer. That does not mean they are perverts OR on the same level as sexual assaults.

PalmerViolet · 18/01/2016 15:09

Cleen, not outright, no, but you have implied that he's doing it because he's lonely, and that it could be so much worse.

We're aware of how much worse it could be, some of us very aware, minimising how the OP feels about this man's inappropriate conduct suggests that you believe that she doesn't have that absolute right.

If I've taken your words out of context and you didn't mean that OP is overblowing how this man makes her feel, then I, of course, apologise.

Bear, I didn't see that word used... I did only skim the thread though. The man's behaviour is deeply inappropriate, but not (from the way it's been described) pervy.

Cleensheetsandbedding · 18/01/2016 15:09

Sex pest! Get a grip!

YouthHostellingWithChrisEubank · 18/01/2016 15:15

"It's absolutely fine that op did not like her arm to be touched OR want a Xmas kiss. But often elderly folk do touch an arm, pull you in to speak closer. That does not mean they are perverts OR on the same level as sexual assaults."

You are totally missing the point, and no one has described ALL elderly people who touch others as perverts! That is getting a bit hysterical. The point is that touching has to be consensual. In the situation described it is not, the OP has stated she doesn't like it and the man laughed it off.

I have been an Age UK volunteer and I know what you mean about touching someone on the arm etc. And that's fine with me because it's all about context and feeling comfortable. I also know that in SOME situations it doesn't sit right. And a situation where you've stated your boundaries and they've been ignored is unacceptable. It's all about perception, and I think we'll just have to take the OP's word for it that she feels uncomfortable, and that this is valid.

PalmerViolet · 18/01/2016 15:16

Are you just picking random words out of everyone's posts to get upset about cleen?

Youth said that the man lacks boundaries but is NOT a sex pest. Not that he was a sex pest. You had said that, because he's not a sex pest, his behaviour was ok.. that Op was being unreasonable.

Which isn't the case at all.

TheWomanInTheWall · 18/01/2016 15:46

OP did refer to him as Pervy Neighbour, but we often use short hand descriptors on here (eg Angry Friend and Nice Friend) and she wanted to distinguish from Helpful Neighbour.

In no way is she off to the police to report him for being a "pervert"; Pervy is often used as a synonym for "touchy feely" or "lechy" and OP used the former in her title.

And yes, someone who laughs off another's expression of their boundaries is out of order - Bear, I'm sure if this guy was just someone trying to chat, the reaction from posters and OP would be different and your generalisation is a bit unfair.

expatinscotland · 18/01/2016 16:07

Thing is, he isn't touchy feely with other men, just with women.

lorelei9 · 18/01/2016 19:35

Update

Saw him when I got home. We had a short polite exchange; I think he took it on board. He did say "I don't understand why you didn't speak up before" and I said " well, how would you feel about potentially upsetting or offending a neighbour?" And he said "oh....that's a point".

So hopefully it's all done now. Thanks to the posters who made helpful comments.

OP posts:
WilLiAmHerschel · 18/01/2016 19:45

That's good lorelai. Smile

amarmai · 18/01/2016 22:21

wo result! Wish some magic man wd speak up to all the other guys who need to be told hands off.

lorelei9 · 18/01/2016 22:48

Well, I'm not magic or a man but I'll definitely speak up in future
I've done so in the past but the creepy Xmas kiss thing took me by surprise

OP posts:
amarmai · 19/01/2016 13:57

maybe the trick is to keep moving =hard to land a creepy hand or kiss on a moving target.

lorelei9 · 20/01/2016 23:31

Amarmai, there shouldn't have to be a trick. And I live here and he gets his post in the hall like we all do. And I see him at the supermarket.

So definitely better that I spoke up and also so he gets the message.

I wonder how many times women use avoidance tactics as an alternative to speaking up? I have definitely decided to be more stand of fish, I'd like to be the type of woman a man wouldn't dream of trying it on with. Need to learn how to look unfriendly.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/01/2016 00:00

Not exactly on all fours but on Question Time recently Paris Lees spent the entire evening touching the arm and shoulder of the man sitting next to her in a touchy - feely, caring way every time she wanted to emphasise a point/ disagree with him.

I can't remember who he was, he might have been a UKIPer, certainly he was quite right wing and she was at great pains to display her left wing credentials. It looked bloody annoying and very fake.

amarmai · 21/01/2016 03:07

agree op- but i am willing to avoid as i'm tired of speaking up-in my 70s now and the buggers are still being creepy.

TheWomanInTheWall · 21/01/2016 06:40

There are lots of men not even aware that women are wary. I remember reading about an incident a while ago where a rugby team kept a female hotel manager in a room with them, making comments and not letting her leave. I suspect in their eyes they were having a drunken laugh and might have done similar to a male manager . As they never intended to hurt or touch her, they were surprised at her fears.

In hers, she was trapped in a small space with several very strong men who knew each other but not her and who were commenting at her expense. Of course she was scared.

PalmerViolet · 21/01/2016 07:42

Glad it was all sorted out, speaking up was actually quite brave of you.

Sadly, looking unfriendly doesn't help much either, because then men think it's acceptable to cheer up or smile or in some other way make yourself more attractive to men. Not as bad as being touched when you don't want it, but still an embuggerance.

And YY to what Woman posted.

thedancingbear · 21/01/2016 09:05

^There are lots of men not even aware that women are wary. I remember reading about an incident a while ago where a rugby team kept a female hotel manager in a room with them, making comments and not letting her leave. I suspect in their eyes they were having a drunken laugh and might have done similar to a male manager . As they never intended to hurt or touch her, they were surprised at her fears.

In hers, she was trapped in a small space with several very strong men who knew each other but not her and who were commenting at her expense. Of course she was scared.^

They would need the intellect of an amoeba to think that was remotely okay. I can't think of a single feller I know who would do that [resists obvious joke about rugby players being stupid arseholes]

TheWomanInTheWall · 21/01/2016 16:50

I agree, bear. But "milder" versions of that, like the long discussion a couple of months back about street harassment, can show more "unawareness" (NAMALT) of the "oh, the man in the van is being nice, he's shouting a compliment, why do you have a problem?" ilk.

Ditto the Ched Evans case. The bare facts of the case were that a very drunk woman went to a hotel room with a young and strong sportsman who she had barely spoken to. Unbeknownst to her, he invited a close friend, also a young and strong sportsman, to come to the room. Evans came in without knocking or asking, into a room where the woman was now naked with two men clearly "on each other's side".

That was an incredibly scary position, even without the high level of drunkeness, and yet many gave no thought to that when condemning the victim.

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