Syrian Father survived, Mother and children drown.

[howtorebuild]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35058733

I have noted a few cases where the Father survived the rest of his family. Do we not hear the story if the Mother is the lone survivor or are more Women and children drowning, if so why? I understand once on the sea there are reports of attacks by pirates coastguards and their boats punctured, so it's not just sea conditions involved.

Hmm. I'm tempted to point at that study that shows the most likely people to survive an air crash are able-bodied men - because they fight their way over the others to get to the escape chute etc. But I don't want to imply that I'm blaming the surviving refugee men - that wouldn't be fair. I do reckon, though, that it's probably fairly universal that in a life-or-death situation, most people fight for themselves and the strongest win that fight.

There are stories where women or children survive. In fact anecdotally, a lot of men are taking higher risks in trying to save children, even children they don't know rather than just thinking of themselves which rather sheds light on the human condition as a whole. In all honesty, I don't think that most people could ignore a drowning child if they had a chance to save them even if the chance was slim. It takes a shocking lack of empathy to do that.

Honestly I think it's a horrendous situation and while women might be wearing more clothing to begin with, even heavily religious beliefs don't tend to come between life and death. If your loved one is drowning and they could survive by removing clothes, you'd encourage them to remove clothes. But it probably isn't easy to remove clothing when you're already in the water.

Remember more men than women and children are attempting the crossings, which might skew survival figures.

This story talks of one particular crossing and mentions several non survivors in the order that they don't survive. It's sad and contains a couple of harrowing details, but I didn't find it nightmare inducing. Might be worth avoiding if you are feeling very sensitive.

www.ted.com/talks/melissa_fleming_a_boat_carrying_500_refugees_sunk_at_sea_the_story_of_two_survivors

This is good for perspective too and is based on real stories.

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32057601

I think a lot of it is the clothing.

I was watching something on TV about why so many medieval women drowned in ponds. The presenter dressed up in long gown etc and went and sat in a pond that wasn't even very deep. It looked like she very nearly drowned during filming at one point! Long skirts soak up water, become very heavy, cling around your legs and trip and disable you, she couldn't find her feet for ages and barely managed to eventually crawl her way out. She looked genuinely terrified and panicky as she was being dragged down at one point. Out of your depth - no hope.

That was Lucy Worsley, I remember that programme.

The TED link made me shed a few tears.

How fucking insulting and distasteful at a time of immense grief and unbearable loss to suggest that a living husband/father would save himself and not care enough about his family to make attempts to save them?

There are many times when some people make it through a tragedy and others with them don't. The ones who do, live with it for the rest of their life alternating between guilt, regret and sadness. Have a fucking heart.

I can't believe anyone is actually suggesting a father would just abandon his drowning children. Clothing may have something to do with it where women are concerned but the fact is women rarely have the opportunity to learn to swim. My DH is originally from a country close to Syria and I honestly don't know many women that have learnt to swim, not that many men for that matter either but still a much higher percentage than women.

No, no, no, we were not suggesting those things Bean

I think I read that in one of the earlier cases like this the women and children had been down below for shelter and the men had been on deck - so when the boat started to sink they were easily able to abandon it and start to swim while the women and children were trapped. :(

Why have you posted this in Feminism?

Why have you posted this in Feminism?

Because it is a feminist topic? Women are dying in larger numbers than men, which should not be the case due to anatomical differences, as I pointed out.

Let's not forget, that, as in Europe, some percentage of Syrian men are likely to be selfish assholes. It is nothing one wants to think about, but it does happen. Men don't magically change once they become fathers.

Though the theory that they interview more fathers to construct a threatening scenario is also interesting.

Anyway, I am of the opinion that we ought to send some helicopters there and provide safe passage for the women and children, at the very least.

No one is discussing whether the father abandoned his children to save his own life.

The discussion is on clothing and trying to swim, especially with regard to women. Children have no hope really.

And anyway the Mediterranean is not a calm pond with clear blue skies, and a gentle breeze. It gets incredibly choppy and dangerous. I'm just aghast anyone makes it through.

I think even if dad is holding the child up above water, rather than mum the poor DC is still more likely to die from the cold than a full-grown man or a woman who can swim :(

I read that if they have life jackets available they are standard issue "fisherman sized" ones, so often women and children are wearing completely inadequate protection.

Most of the time they are floating on totally inadequate things like children's rubber rings designed for swimming, or bits of plastic from the damaged boat.

When a boat capsizes, over 90% of the occupants drown. They tend to lock the lower decks too because if it does sink, which is likely, it helps it to go down slower when there aren't as many people panicking near the edges. Horrific.

And YY - some proportion of the men will be selfish arseholes and some of them will have grown up with ingrained sexism. There have already been two grab-and-drag rapes reported on the road near our local refugee centre which were committed by refugees. Not all refugees are nice altruistic people, for sure. But that doesn't mean that we demonise all of them. I think drowning is one of those things where your personality likely doesn't really contribute, survival instinct and human nature is in control, that is all. And chance. A lot of random chance. The odds are probably stacked more in favour of men.

So much for "women and children first" huh?

I see chivalry is long dead. What a pig.

"some proportion of the men will be selfish arseholes and some of them will have grown up with ingrained sexism."

Exactly. Reasons like this and the OP news article is why I am feminist.

"How fucking insulting and distasteful at a time of immense grief and unbearable loss to suggest that a living husband/father would save himself and not care enough about his family to make attempts to save them? "

Don't be silly, men don't have feelings. Only girls and women have feelings.

Femini I genuinely can't gauge what your point is, but for a lot of people chivalry (ie treating people a certain way because they are a women) isn't exactly a feminist concept, it's 'benevolent' sexism. And your last post is just plain offensive.

I guess you've never tried swimming in a rough sea. Whatever you're wearing strength and stamina has a lot to do with it - you don't just bob around on the surface like a cork no matter how much body fat you have, you have to actively swim/tread water to stay there. Both strength and technique are important and if your technique isn't great then you'd better be strong or you'll be pushed under by the waves.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry reading this thread. Anyone who envisions syrian women being too scared to remove clothing to rescue themselves and their children from drowning has clearly not met many Arab women. In our case (Muslim but not arab) I can swim, my husband can't, and if we were travelling in a boat with danger of falling in the water I would modify my clothing accordingly. Syrian refugees need your compassion for the fact they have lost their homes and probably family members, not for their clothing! Bertiebotts makes a lot of sensible points.

article is about a man who has tragically lost all his family.

feminists respond by accusing him of not being chivalrous and implying he must have been able to and should have sacrificed himself to save them instead.

feminists then wonder why most people want nothing to do with feminism and why everyone calls them man-haters.

"I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry reading this thread."

I see nothing funny about a man who has tragically lost all his family. But then again I don't hate men and I'm not a feminist.

norrean - no-one's said it's anything but a tragedy, chivalry has no place in drowning (and the only other person mentioning the word is clearly not a feminist, but a goady fucker)

No-one's implying he should have sacrificed himself, lots of people have put forward reasons that children and women might be more likely to drown and we're all horrified at it.

Go and take your point scoring somewhere more appropriate, rather than using some poor family's loss for your own gratification.

I've seen at least 2 feminists on this thread with that stance.