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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Islamaphobia?

538 replies

Onnedheil · 09/12/2015 12:36

So, as feminists, women, fighting against patriarchy, against rape culture against male violence to women. My question is this.

Are we suddenly now supposed to be supporting a religion that is an actual rape culture, Openly accepted paedophilia, actual supremacy of toxic masculinity an actual patriarchy Which is responsible for female genital mutilation , based on a the word of a paedophile warmonger who propagates a monotheist singular God who is male .

And when Anyone, speaks out about these things We're labelled as a racist and as islamaphobe and told to silence our voice for the religion of peace?

Have I ended up in the twilight zone or something?

OP posts:

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BertrandRussell · 09/12/2015 20:05

Mind you, sometimes I wish I was Jewish- our dear friends are and the rituals are wonderful......

HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2015 20:07

So as atheist parents would you be happy for your child to join a religion?

Honestly? No, I would feel I had failed in their scientific education if they believed in something for which there was zero evidence. I know there are smart, educated people who are also religious - some of my friends and family fall into that category- but I just can't reconcile how.

HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2015 20:09

bertrand agreed, and the food /food based traditions are awesome

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/12/2015 20:11

Perhaps even worse because he would feel he had the certainties of his faith behind him, and would never be expected to challenge his thinking on an intellectual level.

And that is the difference. Unpleasant on a personal level, not bolstered up by a structured religion.

To be honest I've never had to deal with evangelical atheists or evangelical religious people.

I still don't see what purpose is achieved if you are considering the ways in which enforced and religiously sanctioned mores oppress women to make the point but yeah some atheists are unpleasant too.

The latter is completely irrelevant in comparison to a religion which seeks to make contraception and abortion unavailable not only for its own members but for non members.

Helmetbymidnight · 09/12/2015 20:14

Atheists here, I don't mind what the dc do as long as it's kind/legal etc.

Adult dss was Christianed last year. We do think it's odd (and that he's not very bright-sorry) but no we don't "mind"

almondpudding · 09/12/2015 20:17

I think there can be a concerning element when a person who has no religious background joins a religion. I think they can be very vulnerable to cult elements of it in a way that people who've been brought up in religions are often not.

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2015 20:20

The thing about being an atheist is that it really shouldn't have any expectations attached. All being an atheist is, is believing in one less God than Christians do. That's it. Nothing more.

Atheists can be kind, cruel, thoughtful, stupid, liberal, socialist, conservative, facist anything. The only thing atheists have in common is not believing in God. I am an atheist and I probably agree with Justin Welby more often than I agree with Richard Dawkins (well, I did til the whole Lord's Prayer in cinemas thing)

almondpudding · 09/12/2015 20:31

Why should any random atheist care, or even know, what Richard Dawkins thinks? It is not like being a Catholic; he isn't Christ or the pope.

And especially so on this thread, where the OP has been largely about Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Why when women hold any particular opinion on anything, do we get discredited by people bringing up, and expecting us to defend, the behaviour of some man?

VestalVirgin · 09/12/2015 21:06

Mind you, sometimes I wish I was Jewish- our dear friends are and the rituals are wonderful....

So, you would be atheist Jewish, then? (I believe that's possible. My family are agnostic Christians - none of us are really convinced that the Christian god exists, but we do have a Christmas tree and celebrate Easter and all that.)

There is a school of thought that promotes pagan religion as a way of psychological health care - like, observing rituals that are tied to nature, etc. gives you a structure and a community and ultimately, the pagan deities are more of a personification of the forces of nature.

So, I would not feel like I failed if a child of mine decided to join a religion. You can be capable of critical thinking and still feel the need to believe in a higher being.
That is, if it was a sensible religion. (I would be actually proud if a child of mine became a Quaker. While I don't believe in the existence OR non-existence of any god, I hold a great deal of respect for Quakers. They may or may not be wrong about the existence of a creator god, but to me, what a person does matters more than what they say they believe, and a religious group that has historically fought against slavery and for women's rights must be right about something.)

almondpudding · 09/12/2015 21:18

Vestalvirgin, the Quakers accept atheists!

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/12/2015 21:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LurcioAgain · 09/12/2015 21:49

Perhaps even worse because he would feel he had the certainties of his faith behind him, and would never be expected to challenge his thinking on an intellectual level.

You see, I kind of feel with Dawkins this is putting the ideological cart before the psychological horse. He is of the personality type which sees the world in absolute certainties - and atheism is simply the ideology he has picked to pin his love of certainty on. He is, in this respect, no different from a doctrinaire marxist, or a fundamentalist religious believer, or an extreme nationalist. My sense is that it is the tendency towards certainty, coupled with a fundamental failure in empathy which makes it possible for such people to "other" entire sections of humanity (whether women, other races/nationalities, people with other political outlooks) which makes these people so terrifying, not the particular ideology they rather randomly seize upon to provide a spurious justification for their "righteous" hatred. (Though I will happily accept that the expression of their dislike for other sections of society comes in different degrees of intensity, and at least Dawkins only says nasty things, rather than actually doing evil things).

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 09/12/2015 22:51

I think there is definitely a strand of atheism that in reality is very misogynist, namely the evolutionary psychologists. Some of the sexist shit they come out: men need to shag as many young fertile women as they can, women are the gatekeepers of sex, and everything revolving around men hunting. Even the messed up interpretation of survival of the fittest as a macho dog eat dog is used to justify all kinds of crap.

And I think therein lies the answer. Man can look to any belief system, be it atheism, evolution or a supernatural being to find a justification for all kinds of vile behaviour. Religion is man made and therefore is as good or as bad as the men who make it and interpret it.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 10/12/2015 00:23

Are all evolutionary psychologists atheists?
And even if they were it's just a theory though isn't?

I've never actually come across an evolutionary psychologists. On the other people telling others something is wrong or right because their religion tells them so pop up all over the place, particularly in questions of social reform.

I don't recall evolutionary psychologists lobbying governments to oppose same sex marriage.

Re Ayaan Hirsi Ali I missed her name earlier on the thread and I don't think she is an evangelical atheist. I admire her.

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/12/2015 00:58

I actually thought about looking into Judaism. My lovely friends are atheist Jews and I wondered if it was possible to convert whilst being an atheist. Because there are rituals, the synagogue which is incredibly supportive, people around for the important events in children's lives, and very good food. Quakers and Buddhists can be atheists too.

I wouldn't want DD to be religious. Because in almost all religions, women follow a hierarchy that they cannot be at the top of. I don't want her thinking that message is OK.

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/12/2015 01:00

Are all evolutionary psychologists atheists? Interestingly my lecturer at Goldsmiths was a Christian. She was great and actually said at the end of one of her lectures, "I struggled with this as a Christian. If you are religious and want to talk to me about it, come after the lecture". She was awesome.

There were at least Christians, atheists and Hindus in the class.

BertrandRussell · 10/12/2015 07:54

"I think there is definitely a strand of atheism that in reality is very misogynist, namely the evolutionary psychologists."
But that's not because they are atheists- it's because they are biological imperativists. Which does produce a misogynist world view. Atheism doesn't mKe you anything but a non believer in God or gods. It's the other stuff you think that makes you the person you are.

BartholinsSister · 10/12/2015 08:03

The ritual of cutting bits off babies without their consent isn't so wonderful though, Bertrand.

BertrandRussell · 10/12/2015 08:08

Absolutely. A subject upon which I have been very vocal in the past. But I also like going to choral evensong and Islamic architecture.

samG76 · 10/12/2015 10:16

Mrs Pratchett - you can certainly be an atheist Jew, but I don't see the point of converting if you're already an atheist. There's nothing to stop you lighting candles or eating latkes on chanuka if you want, whether or not you are Jewish. I have certainly found synagogues very supportive, irrespective of beliefs, but of course I am one of "the tribe".

BertrandRussell · 10/12/2015 10:56

But I wouldn't want to be an atheist Jew (in my experience that's just another word for Zionist, anyway)

I want to be a mixture of Golde in Fiddler on the Roof and Jackie in Friday Night Dinner.

Sorry, Sam.

Helmetbymidnight · 10/12/2015 11:00

An atheist Jew is another word for Zionist?

Um, where on earth are you getting that from?

There are religious Jews who support the Jews having a homeland and there are religious Jews who don't. There are atheist Jews who support Jews having a homeland and there are atheist Jews who don't.

BertrandRussell · 10/12/2015 11:10

In my experience I said. The atheist Jews I know continue to call themselves Jews because they maintain their solidarity with the Zionist cause. Political Jews, if you will. I also know people who were Jews but now call themselves simply "atheists".

Helmetbymidnight · 10/12/2015 11:29

The thing about being an atheist is that it really shouldn't have any expectations attached. All being an atheist is, is believing in one less God than Christians do. That's it. Nothing more.

Except when they were Jews.

O-kayyyy.

samG76 · 10/12/2015 11:32

Bertrand - I think you're a little obsessed by the Middle Est. You don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist - there are and always have been loads of Christian Zionists. And what does solidarity have to do with it?

My experience is exactly the opposite of yours. It is atheist Jews who sign up to Jewish anti-Zionist groups that no practising Jew would touch with a barge pole. These are what Howard Jacobson refers to as "asajews".

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