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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Islamaphobia?

538 replies

Onnedheil · 09/12/2015 12:36

So, as feminists, women, fighting against patriarchy, against rape culture against male violence to women. My question is this.

Are we suddenly now supposed to be supporting a religion that is an actual rape culture, Openly accepted paedophilia, actual supremacy of toxic masculinity an actual patriarchy Which is responsible for female genital mutilation , based on a the word of a paedophile warmonger who propagates a monotheist singular God who is male .

And when Anyone, speaks out about these things We're labelled as a racist and as islamaphobe and told to silence our voice for the religion of peace?

Have I ended up in the twilight zone or something?

OP posts:

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Elendon · 09/12/2015 18:46

There are people of all religions who believe in equality. They do not attend services, creed, read the books, whatever. And I stand by my belief that Atheism is a religion.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/12/2015 18:47

Point me in the direction of a single atheist who has ever said my deeply held atheistic belief means that I have the right to tell you you may not have an abortion or sleep with whoever and how many people you want.

Or an atheist man who insists his wife wear a burka because that's what good atheists do.

CultureSucksDownWords · 09/12/2015 18:49

Atheism is a statement of fact not an organisation or religion that you adhere to the tenets of. I don't believe in any god, therefore I am clearly an atheist. That's it. No rules to follow, no holy book to read, no meetings to attend.

Elendon · 09/12/2015 18:49

Last post! There are misogynistic women too in all the religious groups mentioned above, however, they do so to remain alive, because to drop the rose tinted glasses, veil, would expose them to what is really going on. Better to hide and conform.

Elendon · 09/12/2015 18:51

So as atheist parents would you be happy for your child to join a religion?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/12/2015 18:52

You are comparing apples and oranges. Of course there are many kind and generous Catholics and horrible atheists. That does not alter the fact Catholics are members of a church which denies women the right to control their fertility. Individual Catholics may choose to ignore it, doesn't change the Church's position.

I don't think actually if one supports the Catholic Church's views on contraception and abortion (other than on a personal level) it is possible to say one supports equality.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/12/2015 18:56

As for my children following a religion? I'd be surprised. If it were a liberal religion such as Scottish Episcopalian it would not bother me.

almondpudding · 09/12/2015 18:57

'Atheism is like a religion with some people, in that you're either with us or against us. It's a view that is paternalistic. It's also misogynistic. Hence the similarities with religions.'

The view that you are either with us or against us is one that can be applied to any belief whatsoever. I could apply that line of thinking and say that being a vegetarian is the same as being a Freemason.

What you are essentially saying is that any belief can be turned into an ingroup/outgroup situation, which is indeed the case, but that doesn't make atheism like a religion anymore than it makes atheism like a football club, academia, the KKK or being a fan of One Direction.

Atheism and theism are both very poor candidates for being an ingroup/outgroup dynamic, because atheists have almost nothing in common with each other, and theists have nothing in common with each other, because neither thing has an organised set of beliefs or rules around it.

Specific organised religions, on the other hand, very much do have a set of cultural practices, beliefs, ethics, roles and rules that are shared by very many adherents - perfect for creating ingroups and outgroups.

Elendon · 09/12/2015 18:58

Well I don't have any religion, I was raised a Catholic, and stopped.

I thought I was an Atheist, because I don't believe in organised religions, nor do I believe in God or Gods - though I do like to remember the Roman and Greek Gods simply for crosswords.

However, I can't stand the evangelicalism of Atheists and so have decided to stop having anything.

As a human, I have a brain, knowledge and empathy. I know right from wrong. I see equality and inequality -sadly mostly the latter.

None of my children are religious and all say they dislike Atheism as well - they are gamers.

almondpudding · 09/12/2015 19:01

'So as atheist parents would you be happy for your child to join a religion?'

I suspect many, if not most, atheist parents are religious, given Buddhists and Taoists very often see themselves as atheists (as they don't have a creator god), and there are atheist forms of Hinduism and Christianity also.

The opposite of an atheist is a theist.
The opposite of religious is irreligious.
Atheist and religious are not two mutually exclusive categories.

Elendon · 09/12/2015 19:07

Almond your reply is patriarchal in its approach.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/12/2015 19:08

Evangelical atheists- that would be Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens?

almondpudding · 09/12/2015 19:16

Lass, I am hoping as this is the feminist section and the OP is largely about her writings, that the evangelical atheist we are discussing is Ayaan Hirsi Ali!

CultureSucksDownWords · 09/12/2015 19:18

Elendon, can you explain why almond's reply is patriarchal?

maria543 · 09/12/2015 19:22

Islam is not the problem. The problem is that the people who are brought up in those countries where Islam is widely practised are also brought up in a culture which considers women to be below men in the pecking order. That culture also holds a very strong hatred towards the West. The countries which practice Islam are also the countries where people are not able to access the best education, the 'widest' education; their education is very much by rote, and does not necessarily encourage free thought. A better education system might encourage a less blinkered view of world affairs, and that in turn might then afford them the educational means and mental agility by which to question their religion, and/or the violence of some of their countrymen.

We are also mistaking Islam for a race. You cannot 'look' Muslim. Just as you cannot 'look' Buddhist, or 'look' Christian.

People are using Islam as an excuse for undertaking vile acts of murder and torture against other human beings, who for one reason or another, they hate. But they are using Islam as an excuse to make their revolting little deeds seem noble. Some of them are mentally ill, of course, and others are just attracted by the chance to do a bit of killing, literally.

However, most people living in (or trying to escape) those countries are moderate, kind, ordinary people. Just like the people in Europe, and the people in the United States, or in Australia or anywhere else for that matter.

HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2015 19:32

"Atheist" means you don't believe in god/gods. So if you don't believe, you are an atheist.

Yes, Richard Dawkins has an unapologetic agenda to promote atheism, but it's not comparable with religion - his agenda is fact and evidence based which is the antithesis of belief.

And yes, Dawkins has said some twattish things. I'd still prefer to live in a world run by people with his views than the Catholic Church or Islam. He's never advocated harm or restricted freedom or rights, it's just from his perspective of rich, white, male privilege that he just doesn't "get it" sometimes.

HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2015 19:34

maria I fear by this point, misogynistic and homophobic culture and Islam are so culturally entwined that they will not be unpicked for many centuries - look how long it's has taken Christianity to approach anything like equality, and that is only in pockets and very "liberal" churches.

mimishimmi · 09/12/2015 19:40

When I was eight, I was molested by a white boy in his late teens (about 3 times). My parents took it to the police and nothing was done. Why? It transpired to my family that his father indulged in the same and was 'protected'. They moved from place to place whenever their reputation became known. It has a lot to do with my complete lack of trust in authority and confidence issues.

The West has a huge issue with the abuse of vulnerable minors. The GWOT has only strengthened the hand of that ilk and quite frankly it's downright scary. I've never felt threatened by Muslim men (although I'm sure they have their share of thugs) - they won't even look at me.

maria543 · 09/12/2015 19:42

Hermione I fear you may be right. :(

PlaysWellWithOthers · 09/12/2015 19:43

Afraid I have to agree that, in my vast experience, the majority of atheists I've met are evangelical about it. They might not use their lack of religious belief to justify their shitty thinking, but it's still apparent, with an extra soupcon of "if you believe anything other than atheism, you're stupid" thrown in.

Evangelism by definition being about bringing others to your belief system, shaming people into it looks pretty evangelical to anyone with an eye for the ridiculous.

People of all religions and none kill every day.

Mide7 · 09/12/2015 19:44

I think the blame Islam as whole is misplaced. Blaming a strand like Wahhabism might be more accurate.

maria543 · 09/12/2015 19:46

mimishimmi - I am sorry for what you went through. I hope that white boy's crimes against you were not racist as well as mysogynist?

VestalVirgin · 09/12/2015 19:58

So as atheist parents would you be happy for your child to join a religion?

I'm not actually atheist, I'm agnostic, and some of my best friends are religous, so ... no, I would not see a problem with that per se.

If a child of mine wanted to become Christian because that "love thy neighbour" stuff sounds nice, and it is helpful to have something to believein, then that'd be okay.

There are people who treat atheism as a sort of religion and try to convert others to it. I consider that creepy.

@Plays: I assume most people who don't believe in any god just don't mention it. I certainly don't. As long as no one gets on my nerves with "But you must do X because otherwise you will burn in hell", there is no reason to mention that I don't believe in hell. And sometimes I'll just say "Okay, then I will burn in hell, because I won't let myself be blackmailed by any god".
All in all, the question of whether there is a creator god or not is irrelevant to me.

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2015 19:58

Richard Dawkins is in my opinion an unpleasant vainglorious misogynist who retweets praise. He is also an atheist. These two facts have nothing to do with each other. He would be an unpleasant etc if he was a man of faith too. Perhaps even worse because he would feel he had the certainties of his faith behind him, and would never be expected to challenge his thinking on an intellectual level..

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2015 20:03

"So as atheist parents would you be happy for your child to join a religion?"

Actually, no I wouldn't. I would feel that I had not encouraged their critical thinking enough. But it would of course be their choice.

I suspect very few theists would be happy if their children became atheists.i am not sure what the point of the question is.

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