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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Everyday sexism - how not to be the lech at the office party

42 replies

BubsandMoo · 06/12/2015 09:44

Just read this

www.independent.co.uk/voices/everday-sexism-how-not-to-be-the-lech-at-the-office-party-a6761831.html

It's really annoyed me. The author (who is male, although going by initials doesn't make that clear) seems to either have spectacularly misunderstood the concept of everyday sexism or just wilfully misappropriated it. The point isn't that "giving a women a compliment on her appearance these days is a minefield for men.....we live in an age where the line between innocent compliment and creepy lechery can become hopelessly blurred" - which he seems to blame either on women being confusing or some kind of theoretical other type of men, not nice old chaps like his Dad who were entirely innocent and clueless in their objectification. The bloody point of everyday sexism is that men feel entitled to go around making uninvited comments on women's appearance in the first place, whatever those comments are whether the conscious intention behind them is to get in the woman's pants or not.

The tone and vocabulary is telling - referring to other women at the party "smirking" at him floundering over telling a woman what she looked like- and use of the word "uxorious" - unnecessary to use such obscure language in a newspaper, IMO, however high-brow, it just smacks of the author trying to prove he's more intelligent than his readers - but the word itself is misogynistic, implying that a man is wrong to be fond of his wife. To sum up, for all his grandiloquence (see, I can use big words too) he comes across as either exceptionally dim, so entrenched in his everyday sexism that he cannot even see it, or horribly calculating in his misogyny, masquerading behind the 'you can't say anything these days' anti-PC banner.

Feel a bit less annoyed after that venting! Am I way off the mark here or does his get anyone else's goat?

OP posts:
MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 11:04

I'm not saying this doesn't happen, as it's clearly your experience, but I have never ever made a 'come on' to a man by commenting on their appearance and I've never seen or heard of any of my female friends doing so either.

To be honest I had the pub/social scene in mind. Doing it randomly in the street or whatever I wouldn't think women ever approach random men and do this.

VestalVirgin · 10/12/2015 11:05

But Buffy, men have no imagination (that's why they need porn). And they always see pictures of women as pleasingly shaped objects, so how can they do better?

Maybe we should go one step further. Maybe we should acknowledge that men are not entitled to female sex partners, and that, if they feel unable to make their attraction known in a civilised way, heterosexuality is just not for them.

So the whole "But hoooow will men get sex?" argument is invalid. There is no need for men to get sex.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:05

Why do you think that women don't ever approach men on the street to comment on them Nosey?

PlaysWellWithOthers · 10/12/2015 11:07

Oh come on Buffy... we have a man here telling us that men don't need to behave like that. Maybe we should believe him? Testicles of objectivity and all that.

Btw Buffy, great hair... wanna be my mate? Grin

GreenTomatoJam · 10/12/2015 11:16

I'm thinking back to my younger days when I spent a lot of time in pubs, and I can't think that I ever approached someone with a compliment on their appearance - it was generally small talk level stuff - and in general, yes, actually I could tell without trying very hard at all if attraction was mutual - a smile and a look go much further than words.

In fact, if someone approached me with a compliment it generally put me on my guard a touch.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 10/12/2015 11:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:22

IMO, and I don't know if I'm unusual in this, personal comments are really rude. I don't mind 'that's a lovely dress,' but things like 'you look sexy' or 'those boots really do it for me,' just make my skin crawl. Thankfully I've very rarely had that kind of comment.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:23

I don't know if men understand how watched women feel.

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 11:24

Why do you think that women don't ever approach men on the street to comment on them Nosey?

Well people are reading my comments and replying to things I haven't said so I'm going to leave this discussion.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 10/12/2015 11:28

Well people are reading my comments and replying to things I haven't said so I'm going to leave this discussion.

No, we're really not. We believe you. We absolutely believe you.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:28

Nosey, you said 'Doing it randomly in the street or whatever I wouldn't think women ever approach random men and do this.'

They were your words. I simply asked why you think that's the situation. Do you feel I've misinterpreted you?

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 11:40

*Nosey, you said 'Doing it randomly in the street or whatever I wouldn't think women ever approach random men and do this.'

They were your words. I simply asked why you think that's the situation. Do you feel I've misinterpreted you?*

No you haven't.
OK, I'll ignore PlaysWell who seems to think I said men don't do that!

I don't think anyone should approach random people in the street and make comments on their appearance.
I think men do it (see PlaysWell!) for a few reasons, mainly entitlement but other reasons include that they see other men doing this and having "success".
As to why women don't do it, probably also many reasons. Maybe women are more respectful of people in general but I'm sure there are plenty that aren't. Fear would be a reason for many. Also, no real reason. When so many men are making these approaches there's perhaps not much need.

These are my thoughts and my answers to your questions. I'm really not trying to tell anyone how it is.

cailindana · 10/12/2015 11:44

I don't get the impression that you are trying to tell anyone how it is.

My experience is that women don't approach men on the street for two reasons: they've not been brought up to see men as objects that invite comment; and they fear a man will attack them and they will be blamed for it because they 'started' it (by commenting).

Given those conditions, can you see how commenting is mixed up with an inequality of power?

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 11:56

Oh yes sure.
Boys are also conditioned that they won't get the girl if they don't make the move.
This is entrenched in films, tv, the internet and everywhere else in popular culture.
This doesn't necessarily mean that have to comment on women's appearance but I think it feeds into it. And it's certainly no excuse to be sleazy.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 10/12/2015 12:23

I didn't say that men don't do that, Nosey, old chap. I said that I believe you when you say they do.

I'm slightly perplexed how you got that I don't believe you when I stated, really clearly that I do, but no doubt it makes you happy to think that.

QuiteIrregular · 10/12/2015 12:53

Totally agree with the OP - the whole tone seems to be "how to do the things a lech does and get what a lech gets out of it all...without anyone calling you a lech". This is the same sort of thing that makes me cringe at some writers lke Dr Nerdlove with their air of "Treat women like people. That's a great way to get sex."

MrNoseybonk · 10/12/2015 13:10

PlaysWell maybe I misunderstood you then. If so, sorry.

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