Lib Dem Peer calling for justice for Trans Prisoners

[kua]

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8637234?1448374357&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

"As liberals we stand up for equal treatment across society, your background should have no effect on how you are treated by the justice system and we cannot have a prison service which isolates people because of who they are"

Thank Baroness Barker, good to know that me being a women counts for diddly squat whilst in prison.

Given that many transmen only have top surgery, placing them in a male prison would make them extremely vulnerable. Seems to me we have two issues, physical vulnerability to violence from others based on sex, and self-harm due to situation. A very effeminate, physically weak and emotionally fragile gay man for example may be at great risk in a male prison, and be of low risk or not any threat in a female prison, yet no one is suggesting they be placed anywhere but in a male prison and hopefully somewhere for vulnerable prisoners. Why should subjective beliefs about gender trump any further consideration than this case? If we segregate based on sex, that is what we do, except this mad GRC law says otherwise, and now some want it extended to where there is no GRC and everyone just has to be treated as what they sincerely claim they are. This is not justice for women, female biology and female biological vulnerabilities matter based on sex not convictions, however sincere.

A trans man with a GRC would be placed in the male estate.

I hope that part of the process of getting the GRC would include a review of changes to one's rights and would include this point.

The GRC law changes your birth certificate and recognises you legally as the opposite sex. As long as this legislation is in place, exceptions to this legal recognition are probably impossible.

"The GRC law changes your birth certificate.." Strictly speaking, I think a NEW one is issued, and the link between the old and the new kept in a register, access to which is restricted. I think, similarly to the Kim Walmsley case where a clerical error recorded her as a boy, the ORIGINAL cannot be destroyed or amended, even if incorrect, instead a replacement and a note of WHY there is a replacement has to made. The records entered on the register cannot be erased or amended directly, just replaced. The record IS the record!

As regards this case (and the recent trans prisoner from Bristol), as far as I know, NEITHER of then had applied for a GRC (where the relevant panel has to be shown some sort of evidence of your 'gender' identity). Hence the current furore, is accepted, would in effect be -- someone HAS a female gender identity (and hence goes to a womens prison), if they SAY they have. No convincing a panel required.

Why? Why after all, do we house males and females seperatly? If BIOLOGY , then self-identification means diddly. If BIOLOGY, then a transman with only top surgery, despite the best response to T going will still tend to have a smaller frame than a male, and be vulnerable to being raped in a different way to a male, and still possibly in danger of pregnancy (transmen have given birth, we saw the news!). There are apparently exceptions possible under the act for SPORTING events (except the case of the trans woman cage fighter who did SERIOUS damage to the female fighter who came up against them!), so why this insistence that in PRISONS, subjective beliefs should come first? YES, make proper allowances for vulnerable prisoners, but WHY should the rights of females to be housed ONLY with females be ignored?

I might just add , in the US, there are several cases of male rapists and murderers claiming they are trans and trying to get (I assume), both SRS and transfer to a womens prison. DO we REALLY want to see the possibility of that in the UK?

I'm still confused as to the FTM rights in prison, would they be housed in a women's or male's prison. Is there a choice if they have a GRC?

Or does the GRC trump all? And what if the GRC sends you to the "appropriate gender " prison regardless if the individual choses to attend another?

Has anyone found any stats re FTM crime?

Or is the above purely hypothetical as it doesn't appear to exist .

The GRC trumps all unless a born woman would be put in the male estate in the exact same circs.

There are an estimated 80 trans people in uk prisons so doubt there is much on stats.

I asked this on one of the TH threads but nobody seemed to know

If it is a human right for women not to be housed with moles, will the prisoners living with TH be able to take a case to the ECHR?

Fuck

*males

I shouldn't have laughed on such a serious thread but, human right for women not to be housed with moles made me giggle.

Fact is that a (for example) small, weak, openly gay man would be at massive, ongoing risk in a male prison. It's not the risk that causes the move, it's the law that self-identified gender now supersedes sex. For some utterly ridiculous reason.

@MrsPterry: Being housed with moles is alright. They are cute fluffy little animals, who, unlike males, are not at all dangerous. Maybe they'd be a bit of a pest in the prison garden, but other than that ...

If I ever commit a crime and have to go to prison, I will demand to be housed with moles, not males.

I see in the news that a second trans inmate has been found dead in a male prison.

Which provides a rather different example of trans inmates, someone who was supposedly in the early stages of their transition. They were imprisoned after being found guilty of attempted murder in 2001. Convicted of a SECOND attempted murder in prison in 2007, and a THIRD whilst in Rampton secure hospital in 2011.

So, we have someone who was clearly a danger to others, even in secure environments, and it may be they were also a danger to themselves, given the circumstances of their death (yet to be determined).

Given this example of the possible complications, it is still extremely worrying that seemingly the best the law can do is -- once you have a GRC, you are LEGALLY a woman, hence should be housed in a womens prison. And GRC not even required if this continues.....................

I don't see how that would have made ANYONE safer in this case, and in many cases it would make the women LESS safe, certainly. But that does not seem to matter compared with the rights of trans prisoners to be placed where they WANT to be placed.

Italy seem to have a better idea according to a 2011 article from The Journal (Law Society of Scotland) -- a prison JUST for trans inmates.

From the Graun report into this second death:

"Latham had not requested a transfer to a women’s prison, the Guardian understands. In any case she would not have been eligible for a transfer, as there are no CSC units for women in the English justice system."

Latham had only been "living as a woman" since the summer.

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/second-trans-woman-found-dead-in-a-male-prison?bffbuknews&utm_term=.vxbqmlNAG5#.qb108qrlV9

Howtorebuild That buzz feed has no mention of the horrific crimes committed by the individual (easy too google) or their psychiatric reports.

Apparently all that matters is that the prisoner is trans.

I'm fed up with the gay/transgender correlation. Time for this to stop.

www.religionnews.com/2015/03/19/gay-transgender-inmates-invited-lunch-pope-francis-prison-visit/

Yes, I'm worried the actual FACTS (prisoners in Close Supervision Centres, prisoners who have already got a long list of violent convictions, and are a danger to themselves and others) will get forgotten under the 'ALL trans prisoners should be in lady-jail' call.

How EXACTLY is any reform proposed? Given the existing law as regards people with a GRC (whatever you think of that!), there is at least a LEGALLY recognized process in place that someone has to got through to get their ACTUAL sex replaced by this legal fiction.

The papers seem to have the 'living all their adult life AS a woman' (whatever the feck THAT means!) criterion, which frankly might as well be, continually STATES they are, and keeps wearing dresses so OBVIOUSLY isn't living as a man. The 'living as a woman' concept is already enshrined in law, unfortunately, DESPITE many women finding it an ODD concept at best.

If this campaign gains ground, then things can only get closer to legally should be treated as a woman cos they say they are (and looks okay in a dress) criterion that trans activists seem to want..............