Could we have a talk about perceptions of SAHP?

[ISaySteadyOn]

I am a SAHM and I am growing a little tired of what I perceive to be a large amount of negativity towards SAHP in general. Now, I learned from this board that SAHMing and feminism are not mutually exclusive which is why I am posting here. Ironically, given this board's reputation, I feel less likely to be flamed if I post here.

It seems, and please tell me I am wrong, that SAHP especially SAHM are often perceived to be braindead dependent freeloaders. The oft repeated quote' Oh, I could never be a SAHP, I have to use my brain' really hurts my feelings. This is because it suggests that the things a SAHM does don't require brain power and maybe for some it doesn't.

I am someone who is struggling with learning basic housekeeping as my parents thought that sort of thing was beneath them and juggling 3 small children as well. Maybe this sort of learning uses my brain differently than my failed attempts at academia did (and that really hurt as that is what counted in my family growing up), but does that mean it has inherently less value?

I suppose I'm wondering whether SAHPing has a negative reputation because women do it or is it primarily women who do it because it has a negative reputation?

Anyway, those are my thoughts, would love to hear some others.

Op, the dying never regret working more, they do regret not spending more time with family.

I don't regret being a SAHM from cradle to A levels short period of pt work and lots of voluntarily work. I don't regret giving my dd's Barbie, pink items, digging for worms, walks in the woods, days out, nice holidays, none of it. I ended up with two feminists who have plans for university and careers.

My own Mother always worked full time and looked down on me for my choices.

I don't think the dying comment is true. Df -85- regrets not having achieved more. People have regrets about anything.

In the three decades since I graduated, my circumstances have changed several times. I've been the breadwinner (XP did the childcare) with a rewarding, well-paid, full-time media career in London, followed by single parent (XP lives abroad so I really was on my own with the DC).

A few years ago I married a man who is happy to support me and the DC, although I struggle with the ‘fairness’ of this. It seems to me that I get to choose what I do with my day while he has to work long hours.

We now live in a village where my employment prospects (even in the nearby cities) are few and far between. Before meeting my DH, I did all kinds of WOH work (cleaning jobs, working in a kitchen etc) to make ends meet, to top up my freelance commissions.

I am now in my 50s and the editorial work is drying up. I prefer to believe this is happening because a) the industry has changed and b) most of the work is in London and the South East rather than because I’ve lost my touch.

So even though my DC are now teenagers, I don’t do much paid work now, and I can’t imagine that my ‘prospects’ will improve. However, I don’t refer to myself as a SAHM - if asked, I will talk about the voluntary work and the small amount of paid work I still do. On some level I have to admit that I feel embarrassed about no longer having a career.

Even though for the first time in my life I’m in an equal relationship with a man who doesn’t mind whether or not I bring in any money as long as I’m happy, I still struggle with the idea of being supported by him.

If only I could get over the feeling that I should work, I could relax and enjoy life more. Why do I feel like this?

I should add that I love being at home and doing all the domestic stuff that SAH involves. But I feel that as an educated, intelligent woman, I shouldn't be content with this.

I know the answer is to ditch the 'shoulds' and just enjoy. If only I could…

Very interesting thread, which comes at a time I'm at a huge crossroads in my life (youngest has started school, I've been a SAHM since eldest was born).

It has worked really well having DH work while I stay home - his career has taken off and we find ourselves comfortable financially (more than we'd ever hoped). If we'd both worked part-time or he'd not been able to travel and work the hours he has, we'd not be where we are, financially speaking. I have mostly enjoyed being home, I didn't earn a great deal beforehand, so I'd have been earning £0 after childcare once DC2 arrived, and the logistics with sick children and school holidays would probably have been complicated (no family nearby).

While I agree it can seem that I am "dependent" financially on DH, he very much sees us as a team, doing what we each do best, and we are all happy with the current set-up. While I'm confident we'll stay together forever (have weathered a fair few storms in nearly 20 years together), he jokes that he couldn't afford to divorce me! As the earner he would have to support two households, and he's a very fair person anyway, and really values my role.

When we met he already earned twice what I did. He currently earns about five times more than my last full-time salary.

We have overpayed into pensions, mortgage and have very good life insurance, in case something terrible happens to either of us. So things don't feel too precarious.

He is encouraging me to work now, more for my own satisfaction and enjoyment, than for the money. I am incredibly lucky to have no immediate financial pressure to work, because my earning potential IS low, especially if I want to work from home and/or part-time. Because the fact is that I DO want to continue to be the main carer. My children are still quite young (infant school).

So yes we have a very traditional set-up, but it works for us and my children know that I had a job before and I will work again, so I don't consider that I'm a poor role model.

The SAHMs I know are mostly very involved with school and after-school clubs, voluntary work and studying, and lead interesting lives. Many of them will have made huge financial sacrifice to stay home, and I have no doubt it was not a decision taken lightly. Many have started businesses or changed their line of work, by choice. I do think being out of the workplace for a while, for whatever reason, forces you to take stock. Personally I value being able to participate in the local community, chat to elderly neighbours, run playgroups, that sort of thing. My not working also enabled us to have a spell overseas with my husband's job, and we consider this to have been an enriching cultural experience for the whole family.

I have several friends who have managed to share domestic and childcare roles and wage-earning with their DHs, and I admire them. They have a truly egalitarian set-up. But that depends on having equal earning potential, or short commute, or flexible working hours, not counting the proximity of grandparents who can step in when all the logistics fall apart!

I earned a bit more than my DH when I went on mat leave. His career has flown since then. In part, I feel because he knows I am always there as a back stop. He could say yes to any late meeting or business trip without a second thought, etc.

Now I want to say something that I have never heard anyone else say before, so maybe it will seem a little odd.

As a woman in corporate roles, it was no picnic. I was never the type to think I was being picked on because I was a woman. I was more the type to think I was crap, despite hitting or exceeding all my targets each year. Somehow, come end of year review it was always, "yes, you met or exceeded everything we asked you to do, but you lack gravitas, or haven't networked enough, or just made someone else feel unhappy, etc. It never felt comfortable. I never felt like I was acceptable or belonged where I was. It often seemed like I was pushing water up a hill with a teaspoon. I really assumed it must have been me. So when something else productive to do came along: raising children, volunteering the community, managing a large extension (all the middle class cliche´s ) it was a real emotional and psychological relief.

Of course now, I've matured quite a bit. Stepping back gives you perspective. And I am only in my mid 40s and to be honest, I'd like another crack at it all with thicker skin and more awareness.

I hate the presumption that if you are a sahm all you do is housework, parenting and running about after the family, like some sort of door mat.
Some people have no imagination and believe that as it would be like that for them if they were to do it, then it's the same for everybody else who chooses to do it.
Some people need a job for identity because they haven't got much else going for them, especially if they have a career. Putting so much effort into career has made them dull and boring and they can't see how others are happy to manage their own time, find their own hobbies and interests and that they are happier with the freedom to live their life at their own speed rather than like a hamster on a treadmill.
Some people don't define themselves on how much money they earn or how high they can rise in a career and success to them is being happy and content with their lives.

Exactly NewLife

Since I stopped working I have - read extensively, enjoyed two creative writing courses, written a children's novel and other bits and pieces, helped in the community, voluntary library work.

I am most certainly not bored and can find a multitude of stimulating ways to fill any spare time (not much with three children!).

I take immense pride and fulfilment in caring for my family. Keeping a nice home, cooking, educating, helping etc.

It seems to be an assumption that career progression and economic potential are the only worthwhile pursuits.

It's not feminism. It's capitalism.

HeighHo "yes, you met or exceeded everything we asked you to do, but you lack gravitas, or haven't networked enough, or just made someone else feel unhappy, etc."

That's not odd at all - it's classic discrimination - you just didn't look right - ie you are not a man...

This resonates with me so much:

As a woman in corporate roles, it was no picnic. I was never the type to think I was being picked on because I was a woman. I was more the type to think I was crap, despite hitting or exceeding all my targets each year. Somehow, come end of year review it was always, "yes, you met or exceeded everything we asked you to do, but you lack gravitas, or haven't networked enough, or just made someone else feel unhappy, etc. It never felt comfortable. I never felt like I was acceptable or belonged where I was. It often seemed like I was pushing water up a hill with a teaspoon. I really assumed it must have been me. So when something else productive to do came along: raising children, volunteering the community, managing a large extension (all the middle class cliche´s ) it was a real emotional and psychological relief.

NewLife I think you're being really unfair and bitchy when you say people with careers have nothing else going for them and are dull. I've got two degrees and have travelled the world over the course of my career. It's been tough - especially since kids - but never dull. And I certainly don't consider myself to be dull or have a dull life because I have a career.

I do wish it didn't matter to me as much as it does though. I guess I do define myself partly by that measure of 'success' (and always find myself falling short!)

It would be a huge relief to be financially independent of a man or a job!

Heigh when I was younger and competing for jobs, I too assumed that there was something wrong with me if I lost out. It's only now, looking back, that I realise I was actually good at my job and and I lost out to men who were no better than I was at the job, but who were a safer bet for the employer! They were not going to go on mat leave ever, where I, as a young woman, might.

I never grew up feeling discriminated against, so didn't see it when it happened. In the end it feels easier to opt out and leave it to dh!

Apple

My apologies, I didn't mean to come across as being bitchy.
My point was that many career minded people work so hard t their career that they have nothing else to talk about, or interests.
It must be time consuming to keep a career going and be a parent and I can't imagine there are too many hours left in the day to pursue interests and hobbies of your own. The people I have met like this i found boring because they had nothing to say for themselves apart from their job.

'you lack gravitas, or haven't networked enough, or just made someone else feel unhappy'

In fairness, these are exactly my experiences as a male from an obviously working-class background trying to get by in a very middle to upper-middle-class dominated business sector. 'Men' and 'the patriarchy' ain't the same thing.

I always thought I was extremely good at work (and not too bad as a mother either). I wonder if that is bred or taught into you and just objectively provable? I certainly however have enoying owning and working for myself rather than working for someone else. This suits me best - the power and control 9and keeping all the money). However it is certainly not true that working career parents dont' have other hobbies. I broke off yesterday afternoon becayse my older son and the youngest wanted me to accompany them on the piano with their Vivaldi trumpet duet (i.e. I have my music hobby) sing in choirs and obviously now the youngest are teenagers there is time for that, chair a local voluntary thing, on various work related committees, (and as people know I had an island in Panama for 10 years so did interseting survival stuff on that). Yes work can mean not as many hobbies as otherwise but it doesn't mean you don't have any. It is not an all or nothing thing - work and you're dull, stay home and you have loads of time for hobbies.

I don't talk about work to people unless they want me to. I talk about all kinds of things, history, politics, psychology, anthropology. I don't think your interests are limite or expanded as a man or woman depending on whether you have a decent career or not although the career tends to give you the money and means to pursue the more expensive careers.

Me too People! I had a lovely upbringing and would have sworn blind that I wasn't being discriminated against. It's taken about 20 years to think about it and realise that I shouldn't take it so much to heart. I too have been happy to leave it to DH. But I don't feel so happy to leave it to him now!

Now, I wish I had been a little stronger and persevered. Perhaps I would have come out the other end? On the other hand, maybe I needed to step back and regroup. In any case, I am trying to get back into work. I don't feel chippy...I feel englightened, and I think I can do so much better now that I am not so confused about it all.

thedancingbear I am sure you are right. It's hard for anyone who doesn't fit the mould. I had many jobs where I was line manager. To promote someone usually required agreement from my peer managers and boss. It was very difficult to promote people "who lacked that certain something." And that certain something was being a person like them. So stupid, because a diversity of view points and opinions is good for a group's ability to solve problems and spot risks.

I don't talk about my job at all and neither would I expect anyone else to talks of theirs- I don't really know anyone who does. I work for myself, not for anyone else.

I am seriously considering setting.up my own cleaning business.
It's something that fits round dhs Job and the kids and I'm quite good.at it

Go for it. If you can find cleaner who will always turn up at the exact time, stay the hours and do the work well that will be quite rare indeed and much in demand.

I just need to look.into set up costs etc
I wonder if people like cleaners to use their own products or provide their own?
Hmmm

Yes - go for it!

I love my job but I don't expect anyone else to love it too. (They'd better not because then they might compete with me.) I also have hobbies which I love, obviously, but again I don't expect all my friends to love them too. And amazingly I manage to talk about things that are neither my job nor my hobbies.

Our lovely cleaner specified ONE product and I just replenish with the same brand. The other things she didn't seem to be fussed about. We also had one cleaner who specified a certain type of cloth (but she hated us so we didn't continue for long ...)

I knew we would get on to something important sooner or later. I just didn't know whether it would be cleaning products or alcohol...

(That sounds a bit sarky . Not meant to be. All things are important!)

I do love a cleaning products thread

Obviously most of us would rather women set up businesses exploiting gas resources in Russia rather than wanting to clean English homes or sell cup cakes but we have to start somewhere....