SAS hell week

[80schild]

I am wondering why there is not a thread about this programme in feminism. I am sure you have all heard of the SAS and the fact that women aren't allowed in because they are not considered strong enough.

So I have been following this programme, with particular reference to one woman. She entered to prove that women could compete with men (surely something that feminism would be proud of) - well guess what, she won, against 25 blokes and 3 other women.

Surely, this is a feminist issue - that a woman should at least be able to try for the SAS on a level playing field (i.e., no adjustments made for sex), if she wants to.

I didn't mean they weren't at the frontline, I meant it was the reason used by the SAS - not that women can't and don't do those roles.

Doing better than others in a fitness test is one thing.

Actually doing the job is another.

If she got the job she would start complaining sooner or later it was too much for her and they would have to make amendments for her (eg make her backpack lighter etc). And if one woman was let then there would be pressure to let more and more women in. And you know what would happen- sliding slope- the SAS would then be watered down with lots of women who demand that they be treated more lenient and given less challenging tasks than the men.

And as someone else pointed out, if the SAS had women then there would be some idiot "white knight" man who felt it was his duty to protect the woman and that could result in completely screwing up whatever the mission was.

"There are plenty of other armies who are OK about having women as well as men in combat roles."

Off the top of my head there is Russia (or the USSR or whatever) and N.Korea.

Interesting how the "non-feminst" countries are the ones which actually treat women equally in regards to military and don't seem to have problems with white-knight idiot male soldiers screwing everything up trying to save their female comrades.

Why are some men idiots like that? I partly blame chivalry and I partly blame old Disney movies.

Ive spoken to my brother about this. He has a green beret and is currently in the army. He said it's really hard because, while you have allow anyone to apply, the issue comes in that in his experience women struggle to stay fit enough once in. He also said that the training is brutal and he expects most women probably stop their periods over a sustained period. No one knows the long term affects of this and my brother said they probably don't want to be the ones to find out.

My brother then made a very interesting point. He said that if captured he expects he would be hit, starved and sleep deprived. He said a female POW would most likely be raped and its probably this reason as to why the army are hesitant to allow women in.

poyu, dear, have you ever heard the quote "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."?

You might want to ask your mommy, or whichever woman you normally whine to about how unfair your life is to embroider and frame it, and then place it above your computer screen so that you don't fall into the trap of making yourself look like a complete fuckwit in front of people who know more about the thing you're presently whinging about than you do. Or, you could make it yourself. Or, you could just go and whine to your dudebro pals that you're an utter idiot.

Don't care which, just get it done.

With the speed of 1000 gazelles. As they would have told you endlessly in Phase 1.

I'll have to look up the article, but does anyone remember the two American women who recently passed the Army Rangers tests? They are allowed to have the badge, but aren't actually allowed to be Rangers.

Anyway I read an interview with one of the guys who trained with them, and he said in the beginning he didn't think they could do it, and then one day he was struggling with his packs and didn't know how he was going to make it up the hill, and one of the women took his pack for him and actually lifted two full packs up the hill (same weight and size as the men were carrying). He said after that he never questioned her suitability to be there and would be happy to fight beside her. He said she was tough as nails.

No offense to your brother Want2BeSupermum but has he ever seen how many men fall out of shape after boot camp? And the Rangers or SAS isn't something you're in for decades, it's something you're in for maybe 5 years max. Lots of professional female athletes go that long with no periods.

And as someone else pointed out, if the SAS had women then there would be some idiot "white knight" man who felt it was his duty to protect the woman and that could result in completely screwing up whatever the mission was. And why are women responsible for men's behaviour if this imagined scenario ever actually happens?

I didn't say it wasn't hard Want2bsupermum. There are plenty of situations already where women stop their periods. usually those situations aren't great physiologically for men either.

has he ever seen how many men fall out of shape after boot camp?

Not sure they do in special forces as I believe they are reassessed continually.

Shutthatdoor special forces are also constantly training, so they don't have the opportunity to fall out of shape. Male or female.

It is absolute bollocks that women aren't fit enough to be in the special forces.

I used to be an OK fell runner/mountain marathoner (DH was an extremely good fell runner). We would regularly race against guys from the special forces in the Lakes, Scotland etc and the fell runners - male and female- were fitter, better able to cope, and better map readers over difficult terrain. And I am talking about races where everyone had to carry their own tent, sleeping back and food for 2 days over an ultra-course.

When I was off the course, I used to regularly get men patronising me, because I am 5 foot 4 and at the time I weighed about 100lbs. (Ah, those were the days!) I looked tiny and weak and people would assume I needed a hand with carrying something like a water cooler bottle. But I could beat the hell out of all of them up a hill carrying twice the weight.

Women are more than capable of running the Bob Graham - Nicky Spinks climbed 64 of the highest Lake peaks in under 24 hours. I doubt that all those currently in the special forces could do that.

In special forces, as shown in SAS week, it is much about psychological ability as fitness.

If women can pass, as Miller did then they should be allowed to.

The programme 'tests' however weren't actually anywhere near as hard as 'the real tests' as they kept pointing out in the commentary.

I doubt that all those currently in the special forces could do that.

It's a bit different being out in the field for weeks at a time with all the gear, but no, they probably couldn't do it.

But then they'll probably never be required to climb 64 peaks in 24 hours - clever people would get a chopper in.....

But that's not what it's about. Physical fitness is a part of it, but there's a lot more involved, that's why the TV program was a very specific, inaccurate snapshot of what is required - any of the women currently serving in the military could tell you that though as they already know, because a lot of them are already doing most of it unofficially.

My point is that women CAN do it physically. I realise that the tasks in the TV show are 'easier' than those on the training programme - but I am pointing to real life instances in which women have done really, really well at tasks that far exceed those required for the special forces training, e.g. mountain running. Therefore, let us dismiss the argument that they are not 'physically' capable.

As you say, women are ALREADY doing everything required unofficially. It's just that they're not getting the recognition that it is possible for someone with a vagina to show a combination of mental and physical resilience and leadership capabilities. I find that utterly depressing, and I believe very firmly that the barrier is in the culture of the military and not in the capabilities of women.

I believe very firmly that the barrier is in the culture of the military and not in the capabilities of women.

Definitely. Just look at what Want2beSupermum's brother said, and this is something I've heard from other men in the military, that women could be raped when tortured, ummm, hate to break it to them, but men are raped as prisoners as well. The fear of rape can't be an excuse, but it can happen regardless of gender.

Blah! That should be "Because it can happen regardless of gender" not but.

want2b i wonder if its down to the capture of female troops . I assume captured male troops are raped but they can't get pregnant. I can't bear to think about how it would unfold.

Well, contraceptive implants and IUDs exist.

Wait, but haven't all these "super fit" special forces women lost their periods anyway?

I thought it was already pretty well established that women perform better than men (or at the very least, comparable to) in extreme endurance events - for example the Spine of Wales 48hr marathon?

I thought it was already pretty well established that women perform better than men (or at the very least, comparable to) in extreme endurance events - for example the Spine of Wales 48hr marathon?

I think sI.

Not sure how it compares when carrying the extra equipment though. This is the one part of the programme that the winner really struggled with.

She won carrying 20kg, but she admitted (on Woman's Hour) that had the weight been 40kg she wouldn't have won.

But we're talking about winning here. She could still have done it with 40kg, just not better and faster than the male contestants.

^Broight this up with a friend who is a Marine.
He said that women shouldn't be allowed in as the men would feel too protective of them, and that making sure the women were ok would distract everyone.^

That’s what would happen. You could argue its sexist/unreasonable that male troops respond in that way but no army is going to compromise its ability to fight knowing thats exactly whats going to happen, in the field, with a mixed gender front line close quarter crew of grunts under fire.

The Israelis have probably tried hardest of all to make the dynamic work. For a time they had the idea of appointing women as tank commanders, because a commander is isolated from the 'protection' effect and is a priority asset anyway, regardless of gender. But they dropped the proposal recently, not sure why. There are two mostly (perhaps fully) female combat units that patrol Israeli boarders, but only borders with neighbours they are at long term peace with. I know that the US marines formed and tested mixed gender units against regular all male units and accessed the results but came up with a shortfall in comparative effectiveness of 20%-40%, though how that was arrived at or if it was 'fair', I have no idea.

I think, overall, women can choose roles in the military that will endanger their lives just as much as any man, pilot or sailor for example, but if its some form of 'female shoulder to male shoulder' close quarters troop combat equality that is sought, I just don’t think its ever going to happen, short of guerilla warfare situations or special ops.

My view is "let them in & see what happens".

If they can do it and want to - let them, it's the only way to find out if there are more overheads, injuries & whether the return on investment is worth it...

I don't buy the "feel too protective" argument. Isn't military training all about getting rid of people's natural reaction to things, to the point where they automatically respond in the "correct" way they have been trained to, regardless of how highly stressful the situation is?

I recently interviewed a bomb disposal expert, who said that they train to the point where muscle memory takes over in a situation in which a person would normally panic. They're trained for risk assessment to happen almost subconsciously. If training can achieve that, it can surely override the instinct to offer to carry a woman's bag for her while you all run away very fast, or whatever. And if you're trained to help your colleagues when they're in difficulty, you'll do so regardless of whether they have penises or not.