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Original poster

Would/should Watership down be published in this day and age?

26 replies

MuddlingThrew · 26/09/2015 13:15

My Mum just started ranting at me how she is angry they have changed Alice in Wonderland to placate feminists. My mum is 70 and old fashioned with it, and believes things were better in the old days because both men and women 'new what was expected of them'.

It started me thinking about the rabbits in Water Ship Down. To the best of my recollection not a female rabbit ever makes a decision and they are rescued by the good male rabbits not because they are victims of a brutal regime, but because the Good male rabbits need female rabbits to breed with.
What say ye?

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slightlyglitterpaned · 26/09/2015 13:52

What about Hyzenthlay, who plans the escape from Efrafa and works out which other does will be willing to risk escaping?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/09/2015 13:55

Your mum is right. It is wrong to change books to make them more politically correct.

WhoTheFuckIsSimon · 26/09/2015 13:58

Hazel was a brave and clever rabbit as well iirc.

I didn't know they'd changed Alice in wonderland, that's crazy. They shouldn't rewrite books. I'm cross that Titty is going to be Tatty or something in the new swallows and amazons film.

I guess if Adams was writing the book now the rescue group would be an even mix of bucks and does. But it's of its time in the respect that it was mainly the bucks that went rescuing and fighting.

thatstoast · 26/09/2015 13:59

I'm not familiar with watership down. What's been changed in Alice in Wonderland?

Original poster
MuddlingThrew · 26/09/2015 15:48

Im not quire sure what's been changed in Alice and Wonderland-- by my moms angry about it, i think its been altered to make her seem more decisive,.
I know that they do it for other classics on the grounds of race. I don't know if I agree with it at not- on the one hand they are classics. On the other hand a black child shouldn't have to hear the N word casually spoken as if its OK.
I was just thinking generally that these days, publishers would tell Adams that they like the book but he's going to have to tweak it before it hits the shelves.

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Original poster
MuddlingThrew · 26/09/2015 15:50

Slightlyglitterpaned- you know the book a lot better than me.

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bigkidsdidit · 26/09/2015 15:51

I just bought faraway tree for my dc and dick and fanny are now Rick and franny Smile

Lancelottie · 26/09/2015 15:52

Yes, but Hazel is a buck, Simon!

Original poster
MuddlingThrew · 26/09/2015 15:55

bigkidsdidnit
Well in that case I agree with the change, for no other reason then it would make someone as juvenile as me able to keep a straight face during bedtime stories.

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maamalady · 26/09/2015 16:09

Watership Down is a masterpiece. It's a damn good fantasy story about rabbits, not a misogynistic treatise.

WhoTheFuckIsSimon · 26/09/2015 16:11

Oh! It's ages since I read it. I guess I thought Hazel was a girls name, stupid name for a boy rabbit! Grin

Original poster
MuddlingThrew · 26/09/2015 16:17

evilgiraffe

I know its not meant to be but in this day and age, people- who may be over sensitive or may not be- might raise an eyebrow.
Apart from being cute, rabbits are known for having sex a lot.
And as far as I remember- and it has been a while- the male rabbits motivation was because of breeding.
Mostly I remember a female rabbit apprehensive and needing male prodding about the prospect of getting on a boat. (but that was from the animated version)
I'm not saying the author had anything other than innocent agenda.

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Original poster
MuddlingThrew · 26/09/2015 16:20

had anything other than innocent agenda.

But when I remember the seagull he might have had a problem with the French.

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Lancelottie · 26/09/2015 16:23

Hazel is indeed an odd name for a boy rabbit, but no odder than (say) Strawberry and Bluebell!

I took the seagull to be Scandinavian, for some reason. Ees feenish Meester Voundvort, ja?

Original poster
MuddlingThrew · 26/09/2015 16:29

Fiver not that respectable either. I think Campions parents knew what they were doing when it came to naming babies and were probably more orthodox rabbits.

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FishWithABicycle · 26/09/2015 16:42

I think the seagull was quite lewd. I remember him describing the does as "ready for mudder yah?" (I think he was German)

Lancelottie · 26/09/2015 17:05

Ya, ya, ees all to fight.

(I seem to have far too much of this book in my head!)

StormyBlue · 26/09/2015 17:22

I think that it would be nice if both the original and modern versions could keep being published in cases like this. On the one hand I think texts should be preserved in their original state because they're part of our history and culture, even if they might make for uncomfortable reading sometimes. On the other hand, there are some examples such as how Enid Blyton talks about black people and other minorities in her books which I think many people would no longer want to expose their children to, despite them being good stories - so it would be nice if there were versions which could make books age appropriate by today's standards.

WhoTheFuckIsSimon · 26/09/2015 17:36

I think it's fair enough to remove anything offensive. So what was normal at the time of Enid Blyton and is now recognised as being racist should be removed/changed.

But I don't think stuff should be changed to make it more equal between male/female roles. Or even to portray women in a better light. Alice was indecisive, it's part of her character.

I'm on the fence about Guy Gibsons dogs name been changed. It's a historical fact and wasn't been used in a racist manner. But in the new film he has a new name.

slightlyglitterpaned · 27/09/2015 22:09

Been thinking about this over the weekend, and sadly, in the case of Watership Down (which I think is an excellent book, btw)...

Hmm. Mostly male protagonists, few female, one exceptionally smart and brave female who doesn't get much time spent on her, males fight, females are fought over.

How is this a product of its time? The sex ratio is no worse than most kids TV and books printed now - the "default male" is still very much the case.

nooka · 27/09/2015 22:33

I can't imagine many publishers care too much about the books they publish being sexists unless they are expecting to sell them to people who will care a lot about that.

I'd like to see the evidence that Alice in Wonderland has been in any way changed. There have been lots of adaptations which probably include all sorts of changes (think Disney for example) and there may well be abridged versions too but I'd be amazed if the original was not still available.

I can't remember Watership Down very well, but Richard Adams was very fierce about animal rights so I think that would have been his first concern (the Plague Dogs gave me nightmares!).

Thinking of adaptations that have given slightly more visibility to women, we rewatched the Hobbit films recently. The only concession to 'feminists' was to include a scene with Galadriel being both powerful and oddly passive, and the inclusion of a female elf (although that might have been more to include a love story). Otherwise women were almost completely absent, just as in the original.

The only thing that surprises me about the Enid Blyton reprints is that they have happened at all. I think she was a terrible writer, really formulaic as well as sexist, classist and racist. I guess the publishers are trading on people wanting to recreate their childhoods.

Original poster
MuddlingThrew · 27/09/2015 23:48

I think she was a terrible writer, really formulaic as well as sexist, classist and racist

At the time, when I was the right age they worked for me. Obviously anything sexist, classist and racist didn't trigger anything at the time the way it would do now. And I'm not talking so much about the Famous Five (those were just what I got at bedtime), but there were other ones that helped me imbue the bottom of our garden with all sorts of magical stuff. I remember there was one about a flying chair and that will be with me for-ever.

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nooka · 28/09/2015 00:03

I'm not dissing anyone who read them back in the day (I read quite a few myself). And I was probably too strong anyway, let's say she was a very average writer. It's just very odd to me that people bothered to white wash her books in order to make them palatable enough to republish them when there are so many better books around.

Northernlurker · 28/09/2015 00:16

The reason the structure is as it is in Watership Down is because obviously it isn't about rabbits at all really. I think it's about resistance and survival in a warlike situation - a classic epic - and the character of Hazel is based on Adams' commanding officer when he served in WW2. The absence of does in the original expedition provides the narrative thrust for the later part of the novel. If they'd had does with them - and if you imagine humans in the same situation, somebody would surely have included women in the party! - then it would have been a much shorter book. No need at all to come in to conflict with Woundwort. I think the portrayal of the Efrafa does is positive. They have to make a very brave choice and are shown as independent thinkers. Undoubtedly the characters of the bucks dominate the novel but as much time is given to the decidedly 'unmale' characteristics of Fiver as to the very 'male' strength of Bigwig.

oxoladysguilty · 28/09/2015 00:31

So Northernlurker, you're saying it might be a bit closer to Animal Farm than some people might realise. Maybe that's hard for people like me to notice at first on account of the extremley poignant ending. Plus (in the cartoon) the GORGEOUS soundtrack sort of takes it in the direction of fantasy rather than some kind of allegorical work.