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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some men cannot cope with feminism's victory

110 replies

jezestbelle · 26/09/2015 09:40

Spent the evening yesterday with a male friend of a few years standing who I see from time to time. We always talk about everything and since DS left home I have more time. I had a really really long in depth chat with him about the different pressures on men and women. He is I have to say relatively empathetic about women and societal expectations, entitled men etc. He did make one point which made me think. He said that nobody actually chooses to have sexual feelings, and how much he longed to be able to temporarily switch them off, for example long periods when he has been single. I did of course counter that believe itornot women also experience such feelings, but he said he knew that but was just relating his own experience. He also said he reckons just about every example of unacceptable male behaviour is down to insecurity, and that many men cannot deal with women having relative success in the modern world. Well too bad! I do feel we women are on the up in general and men are..not.

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 28/09/2015 20:35

Yops, you were the one who interjected on this thread to make spurious comments about what feminism is about and what you thought some unnamed people thought. You do this a lot. Speak about what you think feminists believe with a bit of a 'I don't really believe you' edge. But without actually coming out and saying what you believe. It's dishonest. And saying you are trying to avoid mansplaining by doing this is also dishonest.

So you don't believe men subjugate women deliberately? Now we all know where we stand. You telling us what you believe, honestly, in response to a direct question isn't mansplaining. You telling us what you think we believe is mansplaining. HTH.

Yops · 28/09/2015 20:56

So do you believe it or not?

scallopsrgreat · 28/09/2015 21:56

Does that matter to you? You seem quite happy to attribute thoughts to us anyway, no matter what we think.

I think a significant amount of men do deliberately subjugate women. I also think, as shovetheholly said there is plenty of evidence that regular men who you wouldn't consider were necessarily misgoynists or violent towards women are quite happy to keep the status quo, deliberately. Because all men benefit from that subjugation and their inactivity in counteracting it is colluding in women's suppression. So although it may be unconscious or lethargy it is still contributing.

BuffytheFeminist · 28/09/2015 22:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 28/09/2015 23:11

Feminism is victorious?

In what way?

Yops · 29/09/2015 07:42

Doesn't that depend on where you start from? The right to vote; the right to buy property; the right to equal status in the eyes of the law; the right to education; the equal pay act; anti-discriminatory legislation. I'd say they were all pretty substantial victories in the last 100 years or so.

BertrandRussell · 29/09/2015 07:49

"Feminism's victory" implies that all has been achieved. Nobody is denying that there have been victories along the way........

BertrandRussell · 29/09/2015 07:50

If, indeed, eventually being granted a measure of equality can be described as a "victory".…..........

shovetheholly · 29/09/2015 08:09

Yops - I don't think anyone here would deny those victories. And they are all things that have happened in the last 150 years or so. Even in a relatively short historical timescale, say "the modern era", women have only had the most basic rights for a blink of an eye (and all too many experience the flouting of those rights on a daily basis, e.g. domestic violence and rape). But we all know that there is still a long way to go - the stats I posted earlier about a gender pay gap, and gendered differences in housework/childcare being just two areas out of hundreds where women are still systematically disadvantaged.

I think that it's important to remember that the problems are structural. With a few exceptions, this is not about men being evil or men being good in their intentions. It's about the way that we live in societies that are riven through with oppressive and exploitative relationships, many of which work along an axis of gender, and some of which are veiled in some way as 'natural' or 'normal' so we simply don't 'see' them. While awareness-raising is an important first step, to achieve equality we need something beyond a change of attitude amongst men as autonomous, liberal individuals - we need to put in place social, cultural and economic systems that allow women to achieve on a equal basis with men and to be rewarded equally for it. As the inheritors of a series of sedimented historical relations from which they benefit, I think men can be valuable allies in pursuing these changes, or they can be obstacles to the progress of equality by denying that there is continuing injustice and unfairness.

And just to clarify something about contributions: 'mansplaining' isn't something that we accuse all men of when speaking to women. it is a particular variety of patronising behaviour, in which a man who knows less about a subject than a woman explains it to her in a deeply condescending way, one that assumes that she cannot have valuable knowledge or expertise about it. The term was coined following an essay by Rebecca Solnit called 'Men Explain Things To Me'. It describes her experience of going to a party hosted by a very wealthy, arrogant man. Late in the evening, he demanded that she and her friend stayed so that he could talk to her, then opened a conversation by saying that he'd heard she'd written a book. She replied that she'd written several, the latest being on Edward Muybridge. And he proceeded to tell her that there had been a VERY IMPORTANT book out about Muybridge recently, and to hold forth on it at some length on the basis that he'd read a review of it in the New York Times. All the while, her friend tried to interject "You're telling her ABOUT HER OWN BOOK!" Apparently it took three or four repetitions of this before it sunk in.

So, you see, mansplaining isn't an objection to men speaking or having an opinion - it's an objection to them talking down to women about subject that the women know far, far more about. It's an assumption of knowledge and authority that is baseless and arrogant and patronising - it takes up discursive space in a giving forth rather than assuming that the women who are present are discursive equals who deserve to be heard. And it is therefore oppressive in its assumptions and in its results.

Here's the essay: www.guernicamag.com/daily/rebecca-solnit-men-explain-things-to-me/

Yops · 29/09/2015 17:05

Very good article, holly, thank you.

poyujava · 06/10/2015 01:42

"women having relative success"

I think us feminists should be grateful for all those quotas and all-woman shortlists that force employers to employ or promote more women even when there are better-qualified men available.

Face it, half the women managers out there wouldn't have had a chance of making it as manager if they ignored gender and simply promoted the best person for the job. Good job we got quotas to force women in whether they are best for the job or not.

poyujava · 06/10/2015 01:46

On the downside, if a woman is promoted because of quotas, then that means whatever company she is working for may not do so well if the quotas meant the employer was unable to employ the best person (who may have been male).

Just imagine if you are male in today's world and you work your butt off at uni and employment. Then you apply for the job you've dreamed of all your life only for it to go to some woman who doesn't have half the experience and skills you have. Because quotas.

poyujava · 06/10/2015 01:51

And to be perfectly honest, when I do see a female manager or a female in a high position, I can't help but wonder if she's only there because of quotas.

And because quotas don't help men, that means when I do see a male manager (or high position) I know he's the manager because he must be good at what he does.

I guess feminists just don't think properly about the things they want.

LuisCarol · 06/10/2015 01:57

On the downside, if a woman is promoted because of quotas, then that means whatever company she is working for may not do so well if the quotas meant the employer was unable to employ the best person (who may have been male).

Please show your working.

Just imagine if you are male in today's world and you work your butt off at uni and employment. Then you apply for the job you've dreamed of all your life only for it to go to some woman who doesn't have half the experience and skills you have. Because quotas.

Yes, just imagine if the massively tilted playing field tipped slightly the other way. Oh calamity! "Some woman" indeed.

Just imagine if the job you dreamed of all your life wasn't actually "yours" at any point, and you only think it was and resent it being given to "some woman" because "entitlement".

LuisCarol · 06/10/2015 02:02

And to be perfectly honest, when I do see a female manager or a female in a high position, I can't help but wonder if she's only there because of quotas.

You don't wonder if she's there on merit? How sad and limiting for you.

And because quotas don't help men,

Please show your working.

" that means when I do see a male manager (or high position) I know he's the manager because he must be good at what he does."

Because no man gets anywhere other than on merit?

"I guess feminists just don't think properly about the things they want."

I can't honestly reply to this without falling foul of mn rules.

Lweji · 06/10/2015 02:06

Someone has decided to goad feminists today...

poyujava · 06/10/2015 02:09

"Just imagine if the job you dreamed of all your life wasn't actually "yours" at any point, and you only think it was and resent it being given to "some woman" because "entitlement"."

Go back and re-read what I posted. Employers should be free to give a job to whomever they consider best for the job. But now we have gender-quotas, all-women shortlists and pressure on employers to employ more women.

If anything quotas are like handing a job to a woman on a silver platter.

If you really do want equality then campaign to scrap quotas and if you want a job then fucking work for it.

poyujava · 06/10/2015 02:11

Being female is actually an advantage if you want to be employed in certain jobs nowadays. You are blinded by the privilege you have.

LuisCarol · 06/10/2015 02:28

Employers should be free to give a job to whomever they consider best for the job.

Why? Why is the employers decision context free?

But now we have gender-quotas, all-women shortlists and pressure on employers to employ more women.

Why? Why do you think that is happening? Do you think it's because statistically women are not best for the job or because statistically employers do not think women are best for the job?

poyujava · 06/10/2015 02:35

"Why? Why is the employers decision context free?"

You disagree? You think it's ok to force an employer to employ a woman even if there are male applicants who are better qualified than she is?

"Why do you think that is happening?"

Because you want life handed to you on a fucking silver platter that's why. You want a job fucking work for it.

I have 2 sisters in well paying jobs, but that's because they aren't feminists. They actually went to uni, studied a useful degree (ie NOT women studies) and fucking worked hard. They didn't spend all day on bumsnet whining about men.

Maybe if you lot put in more effort you might see an improvement in your life and you might find out all the along the only one holding you back was yourself- not men, and not the "patriarchy".

poyujava · 06/10/2015 02:36

I think that's a good place to leave the discussion. Have a think about that last paragraph above and I bid you good night.

LuisCarol · 06/10/2015 02:52

You think it's ok to force an employer to employ a woman even if there are male applicants who are better qualified than she is?

Despite your fantasy world, yes, in context.

Because you want life handed to you on a fucking silver platter that's why. You want a job fucking work for it.

Me? Us? Women? Men? Feminists? Feminist allies? Please show your working as to who is not working for their life.

I have 2 sisters in well paying jobs, but that's because they aren't feminists.

Why on earth do you think feminists can't get well paying jobs?

I think that's a good place to leave the discussion. Have a think about that last paragraph above and I bid you good night. Thank you testiclesofreason, feminists far and wide will think about your insight.

BuffytheFeminist · 06/10/2015 07:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 06/10/2015 07:44

And to be perfectly honest, when I do see a male manager or a male in a high position, I can't help but wonder if he's only there because of quotas.

And because the history of the world is all about helping men, that means when I do see a male manager (or high position) I know he's the manager^ because he has a dick and the company likes people with dicks.

I guess idiots just don't think properly

Fixed that for you.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 06/10/2015 07:47

Oh dear, I think someone was told that they just don't make the grade because they're fucking stupid and have decided to blame everyone else, but specifically women, for being a failure at life.

So many narc men, so little desire or ability to give even the tiniest shite about their hilarious tantrums.

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