Feminism, humanism and second-wave woes

[NiNoKuni]

This blog was posted by the British Humanist Association on Facebook today. Essentially, it says that feminism is a subdivision of humanism, focussing on the gender equality part of equality, so humanists don't have to choose whether to be either a feminist or humanist - they're already both.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. Whilst I personally would describe myself as a humanist, I feel it's almost completely separate from my feminism. Humanism feels to me more of a non-religious standpoint, advocating for humans, right here right now, as there is no afterlife. Feminism is, to me, advocating for the liberation of women from male oppression. They could in theory overlap, but it just doesn't gel for me.

How many of you would call yourselves humanists and do you feel it intersects with feminism?

On another note, I made the grave mistake of reading the comments. I should've brought my anti-feminism bingo card. Some women complain that feminists look down on or attack them for their choices, some men seem to see it as man-hating and pandering to social justice warriors. One woman was berating second wavers and saying she wouldn't call herself a feminist until the third wave had 'usurped' them entirely.

I don't know about you, but I've found second-wave-type feminists to be welcoming, full of humour, concerned for me and my well-being in confrontational situations and generally willing to think and talk about the world. Third-wave-type feminists (NATWTFALT) are the ones I mainly see judging people for thinking the wrong things and occasionally outright berating them.

Why is this still the prevailing narrative then?

In both of these issues, it seems to me that second-wave feminism is being sidelined and described as man-hating (or SJWs) and women's-choice-hating. Third-wave choice 'n equality feminism is clearly way more sexy. Is this the future? Is there still a place for more radical feminism?

[Sorry if this is a bit rambly, I've had root canal work today and four shots of anaesthetic plus codeine!]

whirlpool

You are right about the gods on Star Trek. I was always more of a next generation kind of girl - loved the episodes with Q in.

squids humanists aren't going to go for a religion, even an equalitarian one.

I was raised on original series and then went next gen and voyager etc but came back to original series a few years back.

The forerunner for Q was trelane wasn't he (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Squire_of_Gothos). Q was a brilliant character - the whole idea is great and then it was played with such aplomb!

I can bang on about how progressive star trek was for it's time for ages and certainly the take on God / Gods was not remotely flattering....

I've got a friend who's a pagan. The way she tells it, it seems like the sort of thing I could get on board with if I had to choose a religion.

Of course for all I know it's got a load of problems with it, I only know the one and it's not like their stance on things is widely talked about!

BBC says:

"Pagans worship the divine in many different forms, through feminine as well as masculine imagery and also as without gender. The most important and widely recognised of these are the God and Goddess (or pantheons of God and Goddesses) whose annual cycle of procreation, giving birth and dying defines the Pagan year. Paganism strongly emphasises equality of the sexes. Women play a prominent role in the modern Pagan movement, and Goddess worship features in most Pagan ceremonies."

John de Lancie played Q beautifully.

Just hammy enough, but not too much.

Whirlpool Star Trek original series and next Gen were finished when I was a kid. I was brought up on the coolest captain of all: Janeway. Now there is a feminist if there ever was one. It was so great women were engineers and captains and no one was a fuck doll.....until 7 of 9 :( BIG mistake.

As for the surprise that you can be a star trek fan and religious...thats a surprise?? Star trek gave a vision of a humanity greater than itself- most religions try to reach for.
Tbh Most people are shocked that I am female and into Sci fi (anyone who has been to comic con will understand what I mean about the sexist twonks there).

My religion supports women to make the choices that work for them. As far as my church is concerned what contraceptive choices I do or don't make is none of there concern. As for abortion I know the church prefers it if you don't but I also know it is accepted I cases of rape incest or danger to mother or the child would not be able to survive/be in so much pain (you get the idea).

startrek sorry if I upset you with the surprise at you being into startrek and religion. It was a silly light hearted comment, I meant it as a joke.

I know but I am pretty serious about the crap you get at comic con and the like. Though recently there has been a push in the community to stamp down on this stupid stuff it is still there. You just have to look at community boards to see it. We ladies are either faking our interest (why is never explained) or we are not 'real' fans. As with everything we females have to 'prove' ourselves. It's dumb.

Sorry to derail but Star Trek is a love of mine and the sexism in the Sci fi community makes me mad. Since it has become more acceptable for a woman to be into Sci fi it has uncovered a lot of bad attitudes.

Aaaannnddd breathe. Sorry had to get that off my chest. Peeves me off and makes me mad. It's just not fair.

One of the first philosophical discussions I ever remember being involved was prompted by Star Trek. Kirk met Apollo- and at the denouement of the story yelled "We have outgrown you!"

My father, who I could best describe as a Fabian agnostic atheist firmly rooted in the KJB, said "What colossal arrogance- if we ever believe we have outgrown our myths we're finished"

The consequent family discussion lasted days!

My brother had a humanist wedding in California a few weeks ago which cost him tens of thousands of pounds. So someone is making shitloads of money.

Should have gone for one of those free Christian, Muslim or Hindu weddings then.

Much better value for money......

That's interesting about 7 of 9 startrek. Voyager was on when I was in my early 20s and I really liked the 7 of 9 character. I was young and blonde and female myself and so I felt much more "there's someone like me" about her than about tuvok or chakotay or even janeway. 7 was really clever, much cleverer than lots of others, incredibly strong, always wanting to learn and grow, and of course she was very flawed, she had a lot of stuff to deal with. Her aspect was more in keeping with the Spock style vulcan as well and he was my favourite character in TOS so that side worked for me - the same presentation of rationality over all else but internally often a lot of confusion and emotion bubbling away.

Anyway, I related to her, it never even crossed my mind that she was simply there as eye candy, until one of my friends a few years later said oh yeah I saw that, that blonde woman in a catsuit, you're supposed to be a feminist I'm surprised you like it and I was shocked as it had literally never occurred to me. I saw her as a character and took her as was, and that made me sad I suppose that when my friend (and I suppose other people as well this isn't pointed at you startrek!) see an attractive woman then all they see is eye candy and nothing more? And of course that was what I'd had from men on teh street and stuff and I hated it, and so it made me really sad that here was a favourite character being treated in the same way. As if, if a woman is physically attractive, then she can't be there for anything other than men to look at.

I don't know. I mean obviously she was very attractive and in a tight costume so I'm sure loads of people did fancy her but that wasn't what I saw, I saw someone who was good looking and female and who was strong and clever and commanded respect.

Star Trek "7 of 9" rant over

Nice to meet another star trek fan though (more than one by the looks of it) and that wasn't aimed as an argument with you startrek, more just, I've heard people say that before and that's my reaction to it, you know?

It's the old thing of women can be pretty or clever but they can't be both. As a diminuitive blonde who liked maths and physcis I probably have a lot of emotional investment in this stuff!

Ha I was just looking at the Voyager page and remembered Kes - now I loathed her - and I reckon she's the embodiment of the "feminine spirituality" type thing that was mentioned earlier!

All soppy and drippy. It appears I prefer my fictional female characters to be well 'ard

Then you must have loved b'lanna. I loved 7of 9 but I did feel that she was put in the catsuit for ratings. I think I would have preferred her to be in an ordinary uniform like the others you know? Voyager was amazing in that it had as close to 50/50 as I had ever seen. It really inspired me (at the tender age of 7) and for the first time I saw women being as smart and as kickass as the guys. I saw that a woman could lead and lead well. I can't think of many Sci fi shows where the head honcho is a woman.....unless the rest of the crew is dead.

I don't think the humanists are necessarily right on this. Humanism is a secular philosophy that emerged from the Enlightenment, and is grounded in a view of humans as rational agents. Some strands of feminism remain within this tradition but the more structuralist and post-structuralist developments of feminism reject the model of rational human agency in favour of one more focused on ideology and power that, in fact, sees the 'rational human agent' model as explicitly patriarchal.

In theory I'm more aligned with the post-structuralist model, as I think it makes more sense. In practice, though, as a working theory, I think the Enlightenment model is more useful. My observation is that as a working philosophy, the post-structuralist one denies effective agency in a way that is counterproductive. As we're all products of our ideology and can't escape the structures of power and patriarchy etc etc, there's no stance from which activism can effect positive change. To my eye it encourages feminism and other minority-rights movements to degenerate into competitive victimhood ('intersectionality') and a kind of embittered helplessness that's stuck railing at the pervasiveness of oppressive ideology but can't do anything to make positive changes.

Lots more I could say about this. I think it's particularly relevant to the neverending feminism-versus-transactivism debate.

Oh. I see the thread has moved on to Star Trek. As you were

Yes b'lanna was a great character too! There is definitely a theme there for me, other progs as well, and pop stars and stuff, I always seemed to like women who seemed like they wouldn't take any shit

Very pleased to find another person inspired by star trek, I was but in a different way, I was watching TOS at 6pm every day after school when I was 8, and I wanted to be Spock when I grew up

lol manatee

Don't mind us

I wanted to be Vulcan too!! I always admired their fortitude. I love anything with strong female characters in. Harry potter was also an inspiration.

I was always the ugly duckling growing up (I am definitely no swan now!) and I was often told I was far to clever and it was off putting for boys. When you are not a pretty girl you tend to get ignored and I will be honest it hurts badly. Then suddenly I see star trek and read Harry Potter and it is a revelation... That sort of thing is a lifeline to a young girl.

I'll buy in some dartboards and baseball bats, 18 kilos of pork scratchings and fill the bath with cider

I'm packing the tequila and marshalling the donkey!

*To my eye it encourages feminism and other minority-rights movements to degenerate into competitive victimhood ('intersectionality') and a kind of embittered helplessness that's stuck railing at the pervasiveness of oppressive ideology but can't do anything to make positive changes.

Lots more I could say about this. I think it's particularly relevant to the neverending feminism-versus-transactivism debate.*

I'd like to hear more about this, sounds like exactly where I am at the moment!

Bloody bold fail again!!

YY I often get stuck in a bit of an embittered helplessness vibe when I look at what's going on around the world.

NiNo what do we need a donkey for? You're not inviting david cameron are you?

7 of 9 actress was in a whole bunch of lad mags, IIRC.

Troi's uniform was lower cut than the average as well.

But yeah, Star Trek definitely better than many programmes and improved over time.

NiNo what do we need a donkey for? You're not inviting david cameron are you?

Only if I can take pictures