9 things that do make you a better feminist

[AskBasil]

This seems reasonably comprehensive.

Any thoughts?

6) Not accusing feminists of hating sex and men like it??s a bad thing

Had to read that sentence about 5 times to work out what it meant but maybe that's just me.

Agree with a lot of the points but that one is a bit iffy, although could just be me misunderstanding.

It's okay to hate sex, it's okay to hate sex with men, it's okay to not find men attractive or appealing. And I don't think people should go round accusing feminists of hating men, that's just silly. But if someone does happen to hate men as an entire group... well I don't think that's okay Surely hating an entire gender is a bad thing.

Oh gods, I read the original listicle and now my brain hurts!

Is it me, or does Murphy's article feel a little bit like a response to anti-feminism and choice feminism on Twitter? Not that there's anything wrong with that. I do agree with much of what she says and maybe it needs saying in the face of the Bustle shiteola.

With the hating men thing - I'd interpret that as hating men under patriarchy is OK for some women who have been hurt by patriarchy and/or don't wish to be defined by their relationship with men as a class or as individuals. And so what if one woman hates men? It doesn't tend to end up with the rape and violence that the other way round so often does.

Needascarf- there are plenty of women (not actual separatists) who lead lives where men are largely absent.

For the time I was an unemployed single mum I barely ever had any contact with any men.

If you have a small family with few/no male relatives, no male friends and don't work with men then your life becomes very female centric.

Why are people so worried about women possibly not liking men or not having sex with them?
Murphy points out, if a woman feels like this, it's because of male violence. Or she is a lesbian.

Look at the world and crime stats, the big problem is male hatred of women. What sort of problem does some woman who hates men and doesn't date them cause? How violent are women? Yet this seems to be people's number one concern about feminism. Meanwhile, most feminists usually do not hate men, just violent and misogynist behaviour.

Giraffe

The men can be feminists thing is far from decided across all feminism. It's a matter of personal judgement. Perhaps the analogy with racism is apt. Have you ever seen the South Park episode where Token tells Stan he just doesn't get it? He doesn't get what it's like to be a black person and called the n word because he's not black. And that's the point. White people don't know what it's like to have been born into a legacy of slavery, prejudice, oppression and sub-human status based on skin colour and to still be dealing with the after-effects of that to this day and need to respect that.

Similarly, men don't know what it's like to be born into a legacy of oppression and sub-human status based on genitalia and still be dealing with the effects to this day. So this is, IMO, why some feminists don't think men can be feminists, only allies. They don't get it.

There's also plenty of stuff about men taking over any space they're in, hogging the limelight, talking over women and so on. Feminism is a movement for women by women and needs to be led by women, not men (who don't get it). You may disagree and that's cool. I think it really does depend on your own definition and understanding of feminism.

(I can't resist, I am sorry, but Muphry's Law applies to your post in points 5 and 6 )

Why do people have to be 'better'?

Since when has it become a competition?

It's a reference to the article that prompted her to write this.

VV - the article is a response to another article which framed the discussion in the "better" way.

I don't think it's possible to fully function while hating half the population

Many men manage perfectly well. It amuses me no end that there's such hand wringing about the possibility of women hating men. Whereas the tremendous, pathological hatred so many men feel for women is grand, just get over it and get a life.

One results in women abstaining from relationships with men, the other in murder, rape, all kinds of mayhem that we accept with a shrug.

Actually considering that Elliot Rodgers shooting and the subsequent discovery of his memoirs was condemned globally I think it's ridiculous to say that men hating women is accepted with a shrug.
In parts of the world (India, I'm looking at you) it may be more accepted, but unfair to say it is accepted.

i refuse to hate a human being based on their organs just for their actions

Feminism is a political movement, an ideology, not what you or I do as individuals, goaway.

I quite liked that list.
I happen to not hate 'men', but have an intense dislike for some people, some of which happen to be male
I do hate patriarchy as a social system for how damaging it is to vast swathes of females around the world (and to some men).

As a second waver, I especially like No. 5. Ageism raises its ugly head quite frequently on MN, less so in FWR, although it does sometimes happen.

Actually considering that Elliot Rodgers shooting and the subsequent discovery of his memoirs was condemned globally I think it's ridiculous to say that men hating women is accepted with a shrug.

Well, if you imagine that his crimes were universally attributed to his misogyny, I'm very sorry to have to disabuse you. Many argued that he murdered those people because he was just crazy rather than crazed by a hatred of women.

NiNo, I don't know ... that seems ... Misplaced as an analogy somehow? Yes, Stan doesn't get it. He's an inept dumb kid character (and many people are a bit beyond that anyway). He also finally realises, "I get it: I don't get it". He becomes a better Equal-Rights activist without having to claim to be black himself.

Likewise men can be Feminist without being women themselves. It's a political movement and not an inherent trait like skin colour. I'm thinking of my DH here who is a stronger feminist than I am (and some misogynist women I know). He might not be able to "understand women's experience fully" but that doesn't mean he can't emphasise or see the problems and think that there's inequality. Indeed as a fellow woman I don't claim to understand all womankind's experiences. I've never been raped. I've never been wolf whistled at or harassed because I'm female. As far as I know, I'm paid the equal rate in my industry. Does that lack of experience make me a misogynist too? I bloody hope not!

Am I explaining this well? probably not which is why I should steer clear of this type of topic and will back off if you tell me to!

You have disabused me of nowt.

There's another issue where people argued that a rich white man only committed those crimes because of mh issues, whereas a poorer guy from a different race mightnt have had that said for him. But certainly Rodgers memoirs and actions werent lauded (unless you count on very niche forums, which I don't. That's like saying the views of all radfems = views of all women).

I think goaway really summarised my views on the issue perfectly.

Deep I know what you're saying. It just depends on your understanding of feminism. If you are on the more radical end, you tend to understand feminism as women's liberation from male oppression. Said oppression is something all women have experienced in one way or another and the oppressing class can't be part of a movement to liberate the oppressed class from that; however they may be able to be allies. So, being born into oppression is a part of what women share and men don't, and it is what men can't understand (don't get and don't get that they don't get) - Karen Ingala Smith puts her point across very well here if you want to read more on this perspective.

In the analogy, white people can be allies to black people, they can be anti-racist, but they cannot understand what it means to be black and they cannot 'rescue' or lead a movement to liberate black people as it then becomes meaningless and opens itself up to all manner of further oppressions, well-meaning or not.

On the more liberal end, feminism is about working towards equality between the sexes, and yes, men can generally be a part of that.

Like I said, it's your own personal judgement based on your own interpretation of feminism. If you've never been wolf-whistled at and never felt oppression based on your sex, then I'm really happy for you!

I still don't understand why men can't be feminists - surely if you support gender equality you're a feminist? Men can also be the victim of sexism. Can you not support racial equality if you're white or sexuality equality if you're straight?

I've said this before, a male feminist is like a white South African under apartheid.

You may agree with equality and want to see it happen, but you still get the better education, better paid job, respect in restaurants/cafes, if you are attacked you will be believed.