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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Marking women's appearances out of ten?

14 replies

markmeoutoften · 10/09/2015 10:58

We've been having a conversation in the office this morning about men marking women out of ten and I'm finding it hard to voice my thoughts in an eloquent way so wondered if anyone else here had thoughts on this topic.

Is judging a woman on a numerical scale looks wise any worse than making a snap judgement as to whether or not you find a woman attractive. Obviously apps like Tinder encourage a snap judgement based on looks, but they dont' ask you to rate the user out of ten. The men in question say that this conversation isn't serious, the scale isn't serious and that everyone makes looks based judgements etc. For some reasons (that I can't seem to string together coherently) I do feel it's worse and further objectifying women. Can anyone help me as to why?

I also think it's worse when done about someone you know or are sleeping with (the conversation came about because one of the men's friends has a friends with benefits situation and he said she's a 6/10 looks wise which I thought was disgraceful given she's good enough for him to have sex with)

Any thoughts?

OP posts:
PoppyBlossom · 10/09/2015 11:05

It's worse because you're saying all women are to be rated objectively for their looks, and compared to one another on that basis alone. Each number is a representation of our 'rank' amongst the other woman in our community, as well as celebrities and models which are held as some kind of benchmark to aspire to.

To me it's the element of competitive comparison which is most unpleasant about it, that is women are meant to spend all our time vying to outrank our sister, friends, colleagues etc.

markmeoutoften · 10/09/2015 11:13

Thanks PoppyBlossom That has really helped. And yes it's the ranking against one another that is really galling isn't it. Whether or not you find someone attractive is subjective I suppose vs a scale making it objective.

OP posts:
StormCoat · 10/09/2015 11:15

Its revolting, objectifying pack behaviour. Yes, we are visual creatures, women as well as men, and will make snap judgements based on our immediate apprehension of someone's attractiveness, but there is simply no general culture of groups of women roaring rating numbers at passing men who are minding their own business.

Plus if you google 'marking women out of ten', this is an extract from the top result. Please tell me it is not sexist, reductive, objectifying viciously patriarchal tripe:

Regardless of who you are, or what you're into, I can pretty much guarantee you're familiar with the base ten female rating scale.

The problem with this scale is every man has created his own definition of what each number represents. This is somewhat understandable as one man's 2 can be another man's 10. This is a quirk of life we should all be thankful for as every time a guy takes a dive we not only pull the grenade from the game, but it's just one less guy to usurp in the field.

For this reason alone, any guy happily out hogging should be left to do so in peace. While you might not want to see your buddy leave with Jabba the Hut, he's doing a service to everyone else in the game. Plus if that's what gets him off, who are you to deprive him?

If you're one of these men, then this scale is not for you personally, but as a point of reference to be used when talking to other Men. Nothing will label as an outcast quicker than claiming Rosie O'Donnell as the top of your celebrity fuck list.

We've all taken home an 8 from the bar, only to wake up next to a 6. Thanks to high-heel shoes, low-cut tops, soft lips and hard drinks the girl's original score can be greatly inflated. It's up to you to take the average of the good, the bad and the ugly versions of the girl; then adjust her score accordingly.

I've known girls who walk around as a 6, but will turn every guy's head once the sun has set and the girl has performed some sort of sex-appeal witchcraft in the hours before heading out. In a scenario like this with a 6-8 split it's best to simply take the average and slot her in as a 7. This way your rating is always in the ballpark, regardless of the time of day.

Efficiency > Accuracy

The entire point of this scale is to have a quick, and accurate, way to rate girls and relay that rating to our friends.

And the crucial point is very clear - this is 'woman as armcandy/fucktoy'. Women are trophies to show off to other men in this universe. And it sets up the noxious division - women are there to be looked and rated at by men, who are the connoisseur judges of female worth. There's no sense at all of men being equivalently judged, or that women are agents enough to look back at them. These women don't look, act or talk, apart from performing 'sex-appeal witchcraft' to get themselves further up the male scale. The idea that women might not care, and might be right not to care is not considered possible. If you are a woman who doesn't prioritise winching yourself up the scale with lipstick, low-cut tops and heels, you're probably dog-ugly runs this logic.

And Rosie O'Donnell isn't a successful actress, comedian, writer, philanthropist and gay rights campaigner, she's just a 1 on the scale. Because all that counts is whether a random man wants to fuck her.

StormCoat · 10/09/2015 11:17

Also, men who don't go along with this are 'outcasts'.

And note the sports-and-military metaphors, which aren't accidental.

YonicScrewdriver · 10/09/2015 11:36

It's offensive because it's shared. If a man/woman wants to think to themselves 'hmm, an 8/10' rather than 'hmm, he/she is sexy' - fine. Odd, but fine.

But rating women like there's some kind of intrinsic, important, objective value to their subjective judgement, acting like a pack that has the entitlement to make those judgements and expect the world in general to give a fuck is the issue.

markmeoutoften · 10/09/2015 11:37

Thanks StormCoat, so many good points there and a lot to think about! And I agree, there aren't packs of women marking men on their looks, it's almost entirely a male thing.

OP posts:
BreakingDad77 · 10/09/2015 12:14

And I agree, there aren't packs of women marking men on their looks

Agreed but women assist in this by marking each other, I'm noticing it now that have DS with DW sometime saying things like 'look at the state of her' and I'm like what?, why does it even matter what they are wearing??

PlaysWellWithOthers · 10/09/2015 14:20

Ah, so women doing it too is ok? Worse? A learned behaviour over years of surviving within Patriarchy?

BreakingDad77 · 10/09/2015 14:29

I didn't mean that at all, more like its a double wammy for women with both sexes engaging in it.

spanisharmada · 10/09/2015 14:38

I don't think it's true that women don't do this in the same way. It was something that used to come up at uni, purely rating on looks yes, but not necessarily excluding any comment on their other characteristics.
I understand why it makes people uncomfortable, but I don't think it is something that men inflict on women in the way that you describe.

spatchcock · 10/09/2015 14:46

I think this is a really inappropriate thing to do anywhere but in an office? Grim.

Nothing else to add that hasn't already been said way more eloquently than it has been above.

Italiangreyhound · 10/09/2015 17:40

markmeoutoften well, where to start, it's childish and pointless, it's cruel and offensive. It reduces women to the level of some sort of cattle or chattel that one has sort of attached a 'value' to.

Any man who talks of the woman he is sleeping with as a 6 is an offensive pig in my book. Showing both a lack of respect for his 'partner' (sexual or otherwise) and for himself.

If is done to women by men and by other women in many, many more ways than by women to men or by men to men.

Also, because women are traditionally valued by their looks in a way that men are simply not (except in the exclusive world of male models or actors etc) then it does carry more 'weight', (fake weight)! It reduces women to lips, 'tits' or whatever else.

Women are sometimes compared to celebs and famous women, fashion models and actresses, who are photo-shopped, buffed and exercised by personal trainers and fed by specialist dieticians.

How can any woman compete with that! Nor do real women want to. Compete, I mean, in the looks states! They cannot, so of course they will be left feeling bad about themselves. Well, surprise surprise that is something people (often men) may feel quite good about, the men that sell a lot of expensive make up and beauty products to women, the men who design those ridiculously over-priced and revealing clothes and the men who want to have sex with women who feel bad about themselves (because they may be less choosy!).

I wonder how these men (who feel the need to 'rate' women) may wish to defend these activities. Wonder how they may feel if their mum was being compared to Hilary Clinton or their sister to a topless model? By a bunch of guys. Might they find that offensive?

Anyway, hope you manage to convey all this to the sad saps who want to do this (just out of interest, how old are they? 15?)

JAPAB · 10/09/2015 18:43

spanisharmada
I don't think it's true that women don't do this in the same way. It was something that used to come up at uni, purely rating on looks yes, but not necessarily excluding any comment on their other characteristics.

I agree. People of both sexes can have their "hierarchies" of attractiveness with your Angelinas and Depps and whoever else at the top, and people considered less attractive lower down but still higher up the scale than others again, etc. It's perfectly normal.

Mind you, if they wish to discuss their opinions with others then probably best to make sure it is not in an environment where others have to listen who may not wish to. That sort of thing is not everyone's cup of tea.

It also does not follow, as you suggest, that just because one appreciates a person's physical appearance they therefore do not value anyother aspect of that person.

abbieanders · 11/09/2015 08:03

Well, that may be true of some but I think the highlighted text above pretty clearly shows that it's by no means universal. Some people (and it's mainly men) do value women for appearance only.

I tell a lie. Appearance and compliance. All of the women mentioned as unattractive have strong opinions and aren't afraid of them.

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