So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

[Garrick]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong

[PandasRock]

My point (as I suspect you very well know) is that 3-and-under year olds do not really have a clue as to certainty, whatever the subject matter. They also should not have any clue as to gender (not sex) and why it matters in society - exactly what about gender is necessary for a 3 year old. How on earth does it make a difference if they dress up as a dinosaur or a princes (and how would one so young inherently know one was 'supposed' to be for girls and one for boys).

I do not bieve that my 3 year old knows anything g at all about 'being a boy'. He knows he is one (biologically), and knows the anatomical difference beeeen him and his sisters. He knows nothing about what is 'expected' of him as a boy, because, so far, nothing has been. He is who he is. And so if he expressed a deep thoughts such as his genitals not matching his (societal-pressured) gender, I would be astonished. And wonder where he had got such a thought from.

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

OK. Let's assume that everyone starts as a completely blank page and that none of us know what male or female is. Or the behaviours associated with each gender.

Let's also for arguments sake assume that this blank page of a child has an anatomy which matches up with how they are raised.

If societal condition is real, then this is the perfect scenario, right? You could raise the child as you wish, with no conflict between what's between their legs and what's between their ears, and every one would be happy.
There would not be a single anatomical i ndictator during childhood that they are different.
A boy raised as a boy would be a boy. And vice versa for a girl.
Perfect conditionals to test the societal conditioning theory.

Unfortunately it's not, as this famous case shows. Bruce Reiner was born male but with deformed genitals. As a baby his parents decided to have his penis turned into a vagina, and under medical supervision over a number of years, he was raised as a girl. Yet he rebelled from the offset. He was a boy and knew it - because his brain told him so.
Bruce''s tragic case seems to point to the fact gender cannot be learned or instilled.
Look the case up on Google.

[ChunkyPickle]

OK Coco - but you said further up that it isn't about genitals either - this is where everyone has a problem getting their brains about it.

If it's not about clothes, if it's not about your genitals, if it's not about behaviour, then what is it about, and how can you tell?

[Micah]

Thing is, she has imposed stereotypical gender roles on them from before birth- she thought her pink days were over when she found she was expecting twin boys, she is adhering to the idea of "boys" clothes and "boys" toys.

I don't think there's any way to tell if the boy is truly transgender, or likes clothes and toys which are outside the traditional "boy" spectrum.

Does he simply think- girls do x, y and z, I want to do that. Boys don't, therefore I must be a girl?

[ChunkyPickle]

As discussed elsewhere, that's absolutely not the case with Bruce Reiner - horrific things were done to him and his brother under the guise of therapy, and I don't think you can draw any sensible conclusions from the outcome.

There was a study mentioned further up (or perhaps on another thread) with 16 boys, 14 of which were raised as girls, then in adulthood, 5 identified as women, 3 were indeterminate, and the other 8 identified as men - that would suggest that absolutely you can be socialised as a woman despite male genetics, and be happy there. I would assume that the children/now adults know their genetic history, and that could provide motivation for the ones who now identify as men (it must be a very difficult decision to make for your child, and I imagine their upbringings will be far from typical because of that)

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

I guess it's about being accepted and treated as the person you are. Clothes are merely flags. In crude terms someone who looks male and dresses as male will be accepted as a man - someone who looks and dresses female will (unless someone knows they are trans) will be treated as female. I don't believe for a moment that anyone truly treats interactions with the different genders 100% the same . It's why the genders are different.
We've heard from a poster above who's trans friend goes around in trainers and khaki shorts - hardly a girl girl. The evidence suggests people in this situation merely want to be accepted , and not defined as a group who are either deluded, confused or ill.

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

On the genitals issue - what makes a woman? A vagina? What makes a man? A penis? It's easy to make the assumption that because a certain anatomical development has taken place downstairs, it matches 100% what is happening in someone's head. Brain transplants not currently available.
Did you know that 1 in 3 transsexuals will at some point consider suicide because of this miss-match? Drastic step for someone who might be going through a phase.

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

Anyway ladies it's been a good debate (which I've enjoyed) and I know we all have our own views. My phone battery is low so I will have to drop out for now. Peace and love x

[Kryten2X4B523P]

It is impossible to avoid societal gender stereotyping. You couldn't leave the house, watch tv, speak to anybody else, read a book. Gender stereotypes are everywhere.

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid]

Chunky is that seriously your interpretation of that trial?

14 boys were operated on and reassigned as female. If you read the study their parents were instructed not to tell them they had been reassigned. So they shouldn't have had any reason to question their gender.
At the end of the study only 5 of these reassigned children were still happy as girls.

The interpretation of this trial (and there have been similar studies) is the exact opposite of what you have concluded.
That male sexuality seems to be influenced in the womb by fetal androgens and it is not always appropriate to reassign a boy as it is not always successful.

Seriously 5 successful cases out of 14 isn't a good success rate.

[AnathemaPratchett]

Meh.

My DD1 is convinced she is a dinosaur and plays at being a dinosaur etc. Does dinosaur things and wants to be a dinosaur when she grows up. Sometimes a dragon but mostly dinosaur.

She is also 4 and has been like this since age 2 as well.

I'm not thinking I have a transdinosaur. I'm thinking it's a phase, she likes being a dinosaur and doing dinosaur things, and will eventually reconcile herself to being a girl when older.

[KevinAndMe]

I have met a woman (man??) in a similar situation than BR.
She has a chromosomal problem (2X and 1Y if I remember correctly) and when around 3~2yo, as 'her' penis hadnt developed properly, it was 'removed' (her words). That was 20 years ago, she was in her fourties and at the time (so that's more than 60 years ago), this was deemed to be the best decision to take for the child.

She said she could still remember 'being' a boy and having a penis.
She was raised as a boy for the first years of her life.
She felt she was in fact a man and not a woman but had to endure living within that sex.

In her own words though, she also always said that a big part of her sexual identity was linked with the way she was raised (the brain part) rather than her sexual attributes.

What I am finding really worrying is this tendency to put people and children into a pigeon hole. So here is a 2yo, a four yo boy who likes 'girly' things, so he has to be trans. (Note you don't hear that if a 2 or 3 yo girl says she likes boys things stuff then that means she is ought to be man instead ... Always the other way around...).
What a great way to actually conditioned a child to think that they ought to be different than what they are.
Or to teach them they ought to be different even though deep down they are not feeling so different with all the issues coming with it.
And if it was actually helping people/children who actually ARE trans, then you could wobnder if this wuld help.
But as a PP pointed out, trans children don't actually know. They work it out much later and this is THEN that they need help and support and acceptance.
When children are so young, they should just be encouraged to be themselves, with as little sexual references as possible. They should be treated the same way (again as much as possible), taught the same things (from compassion towards another person/animal to climbing tress, building lego, counting and playing with dolls and the kitchen).

[KevinAndMe]

when Im sure I have also come across some studies that shows that an inadequate level of testosterone during pregnacy also affect the way that the genitals are developping.
Although rare, there are some cases of 'men' (as having XY chromosomes) who look like women, have been brought up as girls/women and only to discover they actually are 'men' when their periods don't start....

I'm not aware of any of these men/women actually wanting to live as a man rather than a woman...

[SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed]

When I was very small I watched the Magnificent Seven and decided I wanted to be James Coburn, or rather his character in that film. That phase lasted until I saw the Three Musketeers and switched my allegiance to d'Artagnan.

[Garrick]

I would like to think that children are seeing "boy things" and "girl things" of equal value more than they did in the past

Haven't caught up yet, but this is such a lovely take on things I wanted to give it a high-five. I hope you're right :)

[ChunkyPickle]

WhenShe - 2 weren't re-assigned. 5 identify female, 6 male, and 3 don't have an identity - for such small numbers, that's basically as many successfully switched as didn't, with some in the middle.

They must have been told at some point that they had been re-assigned (I should read the study) - it's rather an important thing to know, presumably around about puberty when they'd have to start taking hormones etc. and be informed of what's different about them for medical reasons - even if they weren't told at first - and that's a hell of a time to find out anything that serious about yourself, I can't begin to imagine the depth of impact that must have.

I think that if I was suddenly told that, then I would certainly question my gender more than I would otherwise - you'd have to think about it. Hell, I'm a grown woman with two kids, and if pressed, I'd certainly put my gender in the middle group - not identifying as woman or man - even though I'm clearly a woman and have no dysphoria over that at all, because I'm not even slightly feminine, and happy that way.

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid]

chunky

Firstly sorry that last post to you was a bit abrupt (rude). I'm trying to settle a miserable toddler who has a fever and it was a bit rushed.

The trial is very interesting, one of the topics that came up in the discussion was that some of the parents went against the advice of the doctors and told the children they were reassigned.

I don't think you can say that this was successful because 5 out of 14 were happy to remain as female and 3 were ambiguous.

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

Anathema

About your daughter who likes to be a dinosaur. Does she think this way constantly, 24/7, or is it a play thing? I'm not sure it's quite the same as someone who is transgender.

You know, not that long ago the same sort of arguments could have been put forward about gay people. Just a phase. They will grow out of it. Perhaps we could condition them?

I suspect that in 10 years time - given the rate we are learning about the brain - a lot of people on this thread will go "oh yeah - got it now."

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid]

I personally think sexuality and gender identity is strongly influenced by factors in the womb.

And I agree with coco if it was all down to socialisation we wouldn't see trans people. They would be socialised to feel like a boy if they were in a boy's body.
But of course there are some people who would do better transitioning to the sex they feel best suits their brain.

that said I do think Drs should be very cautious with hormone therapy in teenagers. its a pretty angsty and unhappy time and I can imagine teenagers thinking a sex change is the solution when it actually isn't

[HamaTime]

I think socialisation is partially why we do see trans people. You are a boy, and boys do x/y/z, but you like doing a/b/c. If socialisation tells you that a/b/c is only for girls then where does that leave you? If gender as a social construct didn't exist then boys who like doing a/b/c would think of themselves as boys who like doing a/b/c, not as girls in the 'wrong' body. Possibly.

[HermioneWeasley]

From my reading on the FMRI studies, many are problematic because the subjects are MTTs who have undergone hormone treatment , years of living as women (with the neuroplasticity that will follow) etc

We also don't know how many men have these differences and have no problems with their gender identity

So they are far from conclusive IMO.

[ChunkyPickle]

Oh, no problem WhenShe - I confess I didn't even notice.

I agree, you can't call it successful - but it's not an abject failure either - in fact, it doesn't help us at all! Some people were clearly happy to have their gender totally determined by being socialised, and some weren't - which is just more of the same - that perhaps it's biological (but we don't know what), and it's at least partially social.