"Women do that too"

[OneDayWhenIGrowUp]

How do you deal with it when a man tries to derail a discussion about any kind of feminist issue by saying "women do that too"?

It seems like a common technique to deflect the conversation and shut down what I'm trying to say, and I in my reasonable-ness would tend to respond with "I'm not saying no women do this, I'm saying it's something commonly done by men" and suddenly the conversation is about me being judgemental about men's behaviour rather than the point I was trying to make.

How does one deal with that attitude?

I say, I'm bored talking to dishonest and disingenuous people, so I'm finished with this conversation. Smell ya later.

Mainly because life's too short for these nobbers.

Saying something like "logically looking at ONS data....."

Thing is your probably thinking your having a discussion to explore the topic and they just come for a battle.

Though its not just men that derail

The older generation can be very apologetic of men, a brief look at the mire that is METRO comments, articles of historic sex offence, or recently the 'i saved my violent husband from prison article' metro.co.uk/2015/08/27/woman-saved-her-rapists-life-so-he-would-suffer-in-prison-5362943/ are just crazy.

I think I meant a different article oops.

I don't know, it's hard to discuss something with someone being that moronic.

I guess it depends whether the discussion is being had in good faith or not. If it is, perhaps being more precise might help, and in my view "men do X" is either a lazy and inaccurate generalisation or (charitably) accurate in the jargon of class analysis which is not language as it is generally used.

But probably more likely your interlocutor is just trying to derail and is determined not to engage with your argument, and telling them to fuck off would be more productive.

I really don't know why people are just so afraid of calling out male violence. What are they scared of?? Men can be, and often are, absolutely brutal towards women, yet a lot of women still take care not to hurt men's feelings by challenging male violence, and men seem to put loyalty to other men first and foremost. Men need to hear just how much damage their sex has wrought and continues to wreak otherwise nothing will change.

I now say "well some women go bald, but it's called male-patent baldness because overwhelmingly, it affects men and this is exactly the same principle. So, domestic violence.... etc."

"Yes, they do. It's an issue. But it's not AS big an issue based on the data we have, so it's wise to prioritise our attention accordingly."

In addition to data, I think the idea of the structural is important, i.e. that power relationships structure the way that things like gender and race work. Society isn't just a collection of totally free individuals making totally free decisions.

Actually women do do it too.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2452100-Women-do-it-too?pg=1&order=

It's infuriating I agree. Shuts down debate. Frames you as a mad man-hater, when all you're doing is observing a pattern and asking why.

I like the baldness comparison, I will remember that for light hearted conversations!

Will remember 'fuck off' for the ones that aren't.

especially when around slut shaming, size bashing etc I tend to go along the line of.. 'yes they do and we have to ask ourselves why women feel the need to attack other women in this way..' then continue on the protection of privilege through aggression and influence of a malestream media in shaping the minds of women.

usually works to bamboozle them enough to stop or encourages a really interesting conversation.

Equally though, there are many instances when a gender role reversal would result in great outcry, be it in the media or any other situation. Men are so often portayed (albeit playfully) as the loser or brunt of the joke. Maybe if we addressed this issue, there would be less hostility overall between the genders.

Yeah right, so if we all unite in a campaign against Homer Simpson, the entire patriarchal structure will crumble and fall. Nice try. Equally, my arse...

Basil, that's genius.

It sort of depends why your talking about it but my dp uses this "tactic" to prevent sensible debate.

I tell him he is presenting a strawman argument and then I just return to my point.

"You mean to say that some women dumb themselves down to mens' levels? Proof via links or it didn't happen."

"Equally though, there are many instances when a gender role reversal would result in great outcry, be it in the media or any other situation. Men are so often portayed (albeit playfully) as the loser or brunt of the joke. Maybe if we addressed this issue, there would be less hostility overall between the genders."

Off you go and address it then. I suggest you write to the men who run the advertising agencies and buy into sexist stereotypes which portray men as helpless idiots unable to take responsibility for cleaning their own homes. (And guess what, that promotes the idea that women are the only ones who can - and therefore should- do it.)

I stole it from someone on here Yonic.

I don't want to do exactly what you're moaning about, but in my experience women do this too. I don't understand why some people are so keen to worry about the mens at every turn.

I've never heard anyone accuse all men of being abusers, nor have I ever heard anyone claim that there's no such thing as female abusers, yet every time I've ever discussed domestic violence or rape with anyone with regard to the gendered nature of these problems, someone always chimes in with what about the male victims. I get mad about it so, sorry I can't help you, but reading with interest!

Then you are the Moriarty of plagiarism. A mistress-criminal, if you will.

Grumpy feminists are not something you want to argue against, especially for a woman like myself who can't string together a decent argument!