What can we do about street harassment

[TiredButFine]

Hello all, I usually lurk in AIBU. A recent thread on there about street harassment has moved me and hopefully others to a debate about what to do about this.
Hopefully a more experienced mumsnetter can post a link to it, in case you are interested.
The OP znaika suggested an on the spot 50 euro fine. Actually public guidance on unacceptable behaviour (like racist comments) has worked. Who's up for kicking a few ideas about?

Ive recently done some self esteem courses via a womens centre, it covered assertiveness but they want to run a 10 week assertiveness course too. I think education like this for girl, delivered in schools, with stuff for the boys / both sexes about what women actually go through and are at risk of would encourage both girls/women to feel able to assert themselves and boys/men to feel a greater need to "uncool bro" any bad behaviour they see.
Unfortunately, i know that being challenged by the woman being targetted or by bystanders (male or female) can cause massive escalation by the perpertrator, and im not sure how we can make it safer for people to challenge harrassment. Nobody wants to the person who gets their head kicked in for saying "hey, look, thats unacceptable and you need to stop it".

Buffy: Given the demographics of Mumsnet I'm not sure how many men to expect on a thread. There's no bat signal for male MNers to congregate on a thread (or if there is they've lost my batphone number). But yes, I do see your point. Although I'd think there were a fair few of us who'd wear badges if other guys did it too, it'd need a hefty kick to get started. It'd probably need a fair degree of female buy-in too, to prod partners, brothers etc into wearing one. Unrealistic, perhaps.

I haven't made any particular secret of being a man on MN, and have said I'm male when I thought it was relevant. I'm hardly a prolific poster, though, so I'm not surprised you weren't aware. I did deliberately not mention it to Burke, since (a) I suspected saying so upfront would get me completely ignored as a mangina (or whatever term Burke would use) and (b) I hoped it might later be a useful rebuttal to the "you're all man-hating women" argument I guessed, correctly, he'd employ. All my maneuvering was a total waste, sadly - everything everybody said bounced clean off his armour of willful ignorance.

Kevin: I would think it would be much harder to argue that "I was just being friendly" while wearing something that says "I know there's a difference between just being friendly and 'just being friendly'". That's all I was really thinking the idea might achieve.

You know those initiatives where companies put 'how's my driving?' and a phone number on the back of work vans.

I realise it doesn't cover all street harassment but if building sites and roadworks companies had a sign saying 'how's our street manners? and a phone number maybe that would help.

Alternatively we could have a campaign where we encourage women to put in complaints to the company whenever they are harassed by workers then the companies will probably pass instructions down to staff to not do it.

One really apt thing that's happened to me and other friends is when a guy does it when you're with someone (dp or dh) and then they realise and apologise to the other guy. For example on a train dh was in the toilet this guy started trying it (physically touching me). I was trying to get him to stop and when dh came back he apologised to HIM. As if I were a possession. Off topic a bit but gives an insight into the way they think.

Would support this initiative as I think it would give a message about this behaviour being unacceptable regardless of whether they actually get caught doing it. I think there needs to be a shift in perception that such a law would assist.

I am just wondering if mumsnet could get involved with the construction industry on promoting the crazy idea that harassing women in the street is - well - harassment...

There must be something that can be done...

I think that the construction industry has got a lot better. Nowadays it tends to be younger drinkers, out for the night and under the impression that everyone is up for it. Or older perves who just think that any woman in a public place is public property.

That's what makes it so hard to stop, how often it's a small group or a couple of guys, and you have to pick them off one by one.

One good form of intervention, if you want to avoid conflict, is to ask someone the time. It works if you're the victim or an observer. It just cuts across the comments and introduces another person, making it harder to carry on but not offering any kind of response that can excuse escalation.

It's really hard to think of a campaign that would be effective and not condescending. If men are targeted to discourage creeps, then it looks like women need men to rescue them. If women are targeted to stand up for themselves, it implies that women need to teach men how to behave. If the perves themselves are targeted, well, there's that thread to show how that would work. Probably a 3 pronged approach would be needed, with the very clear message that the change needs to come from the creeps, but that other men, and women, can show support for victims with their actions.

I don't know how it is in England, Wales or N. Ireland, but in Scotland construction workers were under contract not to callcat about 20 years ago. Dh used to project-manage industrial contracts, contactors and/or subbies could be chucked offsite for infractions.

(I'm not saying this is The Law, just practice as it was.)

Yes kevin thats exactly my worry. My neighbours (students) kept having wild parties, so I filmed them, sad i know, but then they started shouting "paedo" at me til i pointed out that if they were in fact under 18. Then it's illegal to drink...

Let alone ludly deal es and coke on a wednesday night...

I think on the spot fines, coupled to clear early years education to clarify acceptable street behaviour, would produce excellent results. I've heard very young kids accurately label racism, and even a degree of youthful overzealousness can be beneficial. I think the most essential component is to ensure that both men and women feel sociological equipped t9 address the issue, which means intervention at nursery and early primary level.

Liking your additions to the thread in AIBU, guys :)

Apparently silence was being interpreted as agreement with the troll, rather than allowing women to speak for themselves. For myself, I apologise for the delay.

Not quite, Meph. We, women, feminists on that thread, we aren't taking your silence as tacit approval of street harassment. We know you don't agree with it because we know decent men don't agree with it. The pillock on the other thread is the one taking your silence for approval. He's saying decent reasonable men engage in street harassment. And unless you decent men speak up and tell him you disagree, he's going to continue to think he's representative of all men.

I rather suspect Buffy expected you all to know that already, hence the surprise when no one spoke up to say, "Speak for yourself; we decent men think differently."

I'm inclined to agree about it being an individual versus class thing. Mainly because DD's father said pretty much the same thing when I was ranting in his general direction yesterday. I'd hazard a guess that male as the default unless otherwise specified is partly to blame there. Those of us who aren't straight white men are very much aware that we belong to a separate group. Straight white men don't tend to be identified as such all the bloody time though, they're just people. The rest of us, society makes damned sure we know we're other.

Perhaps we can just start spreading all the things that are out there already?

Look on youtube - there are quite a few things that are anti-catcalling.

Actually - do you know what I think I can do? Get the kids that I teach to make a youtube video about this kind of issue.

Good idea kickass.

I found The Gift of Fear very useful on the subject of "you don't owe someone making you feel afraid a polite response"

Well, thanks to this thread I have just come up with a plan for this year's PSHE class.

...which means intervention at nursery and early primary level.

Which does get taught sometimes. Occasionally you get a child who for whatever reason badgers/harrasses another child in some way. As well as trying to alter that child's behaviour you can teach the victim to shout "NO! I DON'T LIKE IT!" and to push the other child away.

Yes being serious about badges, it isn't actually that practical...because they can be mis-used.
I guess that yes the behaviour of cat calling etc is technically illegal, but accepted. Defining "the line" is tough because as we all know, it's the "seemingly innocent" nature of a lot of it (thought I knew her, she didn't seem uninterested) which is why the default needs to be not bothering women