Legalise prostitution to counter feminism (yes really)

[grimbletart]

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11785628/Prostitution-Legalise-sex-work-for-modern-men-says-think-tank.html

Absolutely no comment necessary for this

Actually I've just got to a bit which says:

" The second objection claims
to be evidence-based, with factual statements that involvement in the sex
industry damages women (but not men, strangely)"

And she's taking the piss isn't she.

I don't know anyone who has concerns about prostitution who think it's all fine and dandy for men and boys who sell sex

This doesn't read like a serious thing, it reads like someone who has a serious axe to grind.

I'm going to skip to the bit where she apparently says we need to throw prostitutes to the wolves (rapists) so they won't rape "decent" women. And see what she actually has to say on the matter.

I don't see how increased access to prostitutes would decrease sexual assaults. Why would men start paying for something that they can currently get for free?

Something in this case being non-consensual sex with women. Introducing money into the transaction doesn't stop the sex being non-consensual imo. It's just a more dignified form of coercion than violence.

OK what she says is

In areas where men can access prostitute less rapes are reported. The natural conclusion (that she doesn't explicitly draw) is that the men are raping the prostitutes. This is not an OK price to pay for less rape of non prostituted women.

Because rape and sex are not the same thing. Does she think they are the same thing? Maybe.

She also says that sweden has a high rate of reported rape and (maybe this is to do with high levels of reporting) but NO it's really because the poor men haven't got enough prostitutes to fuck.

Then she goes on to conflate reported rape figures, with actual rape figures. So completely ignoring any cultural societal things around who reports rape and when, and whether it gets written down, and that entire huge massive area.

She doesn't mention children in the industry at all although does cite figures from areas which are known for high levels of prostituted children.

Basically if you didn't know anything about it, you read that and think that nothing bad had ever happened to do with this, EVER.

I don't think I can be bothered to read the conclusion

Her whole premise is that men want sex more than women AND SO THEY MUST HAVE IT is a non starter for me.

Creditable researcher? From what I can see and from her reputation, she just decides the outcome of her research and then goes and assembles a bunch of evidence of varying degrees of quality to back it up. That is not the work of a creditable researcher: that's the work of a hack and polemicist looking to gain maximum notoriety for her ideas.

The view that there is now a sex deficit for men because of feminism is just bizarre. Women can now have as much sex as they want and there are apps like Tindr and so on. Casual sex is now more normal than ever before. So if anything men today should have less need of prostitutes than ever before.

But society has not changed its entitlement narrative towards men so there is still a proportion of men out there who feel entitled to buy access to women's bodies because they have 'needs'.

oh I was just about to post this!

I'm also horrified by it - not because of legalising prostitution, I actually think there are arguments for that.

But this argument, while I wouldn't necessarily use the title the OP used, seems to be "legalise prostitution because it's so difficult for men at the moment."

of all the reasons I can think of to do it, I find astonishing that 1) someone thinks "because men" is a reason and 2) I find it even worse that a woman has come up with this.

I also find it very interesting indeed - IF it is true - that women are having sex less as they get more independent.

"Hakim has enough resources and citations that ignoring what she writes will only happen if your ideology is set in stone and you can't view anything objectively."

She really can't imagine a world where men don't buy women for sex. One where women aren't objects for men's sexual desire.

That's not really an objective base to start from.

Buffy ISWYM.

Perhaps I didn't phrase it well. I was thinking of the fact that Hakim's argument is based entirely around her perception of "men's needs", whereas the only arguments I would see in favour of legalising prostitution would be about better protection for the workers.

I hear you Buffy. It's just me thinking in a very practical sense of the safety of sex workers. Realistically, I can't imagine living in a world where sex workers don't exist, so I hadn't even factored that in to be honest.

I was thinking more that I am annoyed that in spite of practical and safety related reasons for (maybe) legalising it, this woman has come up with an argument that reads - to me - like "oh the poor men!! They aren't getting enough sex! We must urgently reduce barriers to men getting sex!!"

I have just realised this woman wrote "honey money". Hrmph.

It's a really grimy little piece isn't it.

The part about "why on earth don't more women choose to be prostitutes, it's a great job, it's really odd that they don't" in conjunction with saying there are no problems with trafficking anywhere (basically), not mentioning child exploitation, and saying that people who are legal or illegal migrants who are selling sex it's because they feel all footloose and fancy free like they're on holiday....

It's not a serious article though is it? I mean, I can see she's published it, but it's not a "proper" scientific thing surely, it's so blatant in it's agenda.

achieve also not just "poor men" but also the threat - if we don't give men access to as much and whatever type of sex they want, they will just take it aka rape.

Such a low opinion of men

Also someone needs to explain about wanking to her

Buffy - yes, I am saying I can't imagine a world where some people want to pay for sex. I can't imagine a world where some men at least won't just see women as bodies and think they should be able to pay to use them.

That may be depressing but I'm afraid I think it's reality. I'm never one to have these conversations in any kind of "ideal world" context though.

I have been very careful to say "some men" because I do think that is important.

Maybe in 2000 years we might have a world where only a tiny tiny percentage feel that way about women. But I don't tend to think that far ahead

I'm not sure what you mean about men being removed from discussions on safety to be honest.

""As economists recognise (Levitt and Dubner 2009: 54-55), the puzzle is
not why intelligent and attractive women become prostitutes, but rather
why more women are not tempted into this lucrative occupation."

...........

Not sure what to say to that one"

How about this - after you, Catherine. But no, too busy being a "researcher" and criticising every other woman isn't she. Really brings a bad name to academia.

Buffy, I thought that might be what you meant.

I just think that there are many professions where you might need protecting from Joe Public being violent so I didn't sense that anyone was trying to create a separation, more just focusing on the problem in question.

No, NAAALT. That one isn't covering them in glory though (you do).

I just think that there are many professions where you might need protecting from Joe Public being violent so I didn't sense that anyone was trying to create a separation, more just focusing on the problem in question

Yes but the police, ambulance service, fire service,social workers, animal cruelty inspectors, NHS A&E, even lawyers acting for accused persond are there fundamentally to serve society and to try to make the circumstances of those they are dealing with in particular better and in general to try to make the world a better place for us all to live.

Some of these people individually might be personally hopeless or even corrupt but that is irrelevant to their raison d'etre. They have a purpose. On the whole many things would be somewhere between bloody awful to intolerable if they didn't do their job.

Who does prostitution serve? Would the world be a worse place it ceased to be a thing?

I don't see what is so problematic about imagining a world where prostitution didn't exist.