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Original poster

Prosecutions for rape accusations

195 replies

Offred · 16/07/2015 00:01

Was reading this just now;

www.theguardian.com/law/2014/dec/01/109-women-prosecuted-false-rape-allegations

Two things jump out. One that there is no rule restricting the police from treating someone making an accusation as a suspect in a different crime, relating to the same circumstances, of perverting the course of justice, which obviously has the implication referred to in the article, that the rape claim will not be properly investigated as it is already being treated as the basis for a different investigation.

The second that how in the hell are police so frequently 'proving' that the woman has made a false accusation? I mean we are always being told that rape prosecutions fail because of a lack of evidence sufficient to prove beyond a reasonable doubt a rape took place, how are police finding sufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone has not raped someone AND that they went to a police station and deliberately made an unambiguously false complaint knowing and understanding what they were doing?!

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Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 16:17

It's hard to get enough evidence for a conviction for rape and whether someone feels they were raped is a different issue to whether someone can be legally convicted of rape.

I find it hard to see how text messages (unless they were from the time of the report and saying 'I'm going to deliberately report this guy for something he didn't do) could be evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that someone knowingly and deliberately made the report in order to trigger a false investigation.

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BakingCookiesAndShit · 16/07/2015 16:19

When specialist SV police officers are boldly saying in research that they think that most women are lying when they report rape, I very much doubt if it's the publicity given to the tiny number of PCJ/WPT prosecutions that are the reason women don't report.

The reason women don't report is that we know we won't be believed in the main. Unless we fit some kind of 'perfect victim' profile and even then, it's not a given. Another reason is that, even on the tiny chance that a couple of plod who don't know you from a hole in the ground decide that you're telling the truth, the CPS don't prosecute unless the case is watertight, and if they do, then you have to go through the trauma of sitting in the same room as your smirking rapist. Bad enough when you have to see that smirking rapist every so often anyway, let alone when he's got a usually female barrister trying to convince everyone that you're going through all this shit for giggles.

Hmmmm, maybe this thread isn't for me, eh?

GraysAnalogy · 16/07/2015 16:20

What the hell are you talking about Offred?

What else did the woman mean to accomplish by filing a report? Confused

Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 16:21

If you read many of the cases which have led to conviction (or not even led to prosecution in the end) the police have decided not to interview suspects, they have refused to test evidence for DNA in order to corroborate or disprove an accusation etc and there are no rules that say they have to investigate the accusation before turning to suspicion. It is never appropriate to turn to suspecting someone who makes an accusation without properly investigating the accusation first. That's one of the points. If you don't investigate the accusation how can you establish adequately that it is false? Of course there will be limited evidence to support the accusation as true if the accusation has never been investigated by the time the prosecution reaches court.

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Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 16:22

I'm talking about the standard of proof for a prosecution of perverting the course of justice.

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Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 16:24

And yes it should mean that yonic but the court only has to look at the evidence for the prosecution of perverting the course of justice. If the police have never investigated the rape accusation who will?

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Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 16:26

And it often depends on things like; woman had injuries, we found no evidence injuries were inflicted by anyone other than herself and have never had a suspect - well yeah, you wouldn't do if you had never investigated!!

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GraysAnalogy · 16/07/2015 16:27

I'm not talking about 'many of the cases', I'm talking about the specific one I mentioned which you replied about:

I find it hard to see how text messages (unless they were from the time of the report and saying 'I'm going to deliberately report this guy for something he didn't do) could be evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that someone knowingly and deliberately made the report in order to trigger a false investigation.

If the woman had consensual sex, then reported it to the police, what did she expect to come of the report pray tell?

Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 16:28

I'm talking about how you prove beyond a reasonable doubt someone both knew they hadn't been raped and deliberately lied. Unless the texts said that and were contemporaneous how is it proof?

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Superexcited · 16/07/2015 16:29

There was a case in the press last year where a woman was convicted of attempting to pervert the course of justice by making a false accusation of rape. I don't know if the police spent much or indeed any time investigating the accusation but it was reported that the woman had made similar claims on two previous occasions (different men) and both claims had turned out to be false. I can understand the police being suspicious of her accusation in those circumstances. Not that I am saying it gives them the right to not investigate her claims.
Will see if I can find any links.

thedancingbear · 16/07/2015 16:30

offred, do you, hand on heart, really think that the risk of being prosecuted for making a false claim is such that women could/should be dissuaded from making a complaint?

No-one is denying that the police and CPS will, very occasionally, behave appallingly. But we don't live in a perfect world, and the stats show that this is a tiny risk.

Superexcited · 16/07/2015 16:30

Haven't found the one I was thinking of yet but I did find this one:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9894588/Compulsive-liar-jailed-after-11-false-rape-claims-in-decade.html

Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 16:31

But there's the thing. How have they come to the conclusion they are false accusations if we know that police are leaning on women to drop accusations and not reporting a quarter of crimes? It starts then to become a history of potential poor investigation of rape accusations which may be used as 'evidence' of serial lying.

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Offred · 16/07/2015 16:32

I do think the risk is too high for me, because there are no safeguards yes. I think other people should be aware and make their own choice.

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Offred · 16/07/2015 16:35

There is simply no duty on the police to take rape allegations seriously. That's the main factor. If they did in that case I'm glad.

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Superexcited · 16/07/2015 16:39

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/wales/10169257/Woman-who-made-a-string-of-false-rape-allegations-is-jailed.html

This might be the one I was originally thinking of.
There is never any excuse for the police to not investigate a tape accusation properly and thoroughly but I think the two cases that I have linked show why the investigation might be short lived.
I really don't think this small number of cases should act as a deterrent to wonen coming forward to report rapes.
I know that I would be more concerned about the trauma of going to court and being aggressively cross examined than I would about the issues raised in this report.

GraysAnalogy · 16/07/2015 16:40

The thing is you're using the same logic here that we hate seeing in rape trials, and condemn.

If a woman sends multiple messages to her friend having a conversation about sex with two men, how she needs her friend to cover up for her because her boyfriend thought she was out with her, how good of a night she had etc, that is going to be used as evidence of consent.

If every case was based off evidence as simple as 'i have not been raped but I'm going to accuse them of it' or 'i am going to murder her then lie about murdering her' then we would have cut and dry cases.

I don't care what our law says, we do not have a court system in which they prove beyond a reasonable doubt, unless there is video evidence. There are too many doubts, judges and juries can only go with the evidence as they would in any other case.

You just don't like it because this is now being applied against women who accused men of rape, but lied.

Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 16:48

I don't like it because I think one rape victim who has been raped and then imprisoned for 'lying' is too many. Also because there is no duty to investigate a rape accusation and virtuall no safeguards for women making rape complaints from spurious prosecution based on the personal belief of the officer who is investigating. That's not a just system.

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fattymcfatfat · 16/07/2015 16:59

offred and many others feel the same, but we also feel that one person falsely imprisoned for a rape they did not commit is one too many.

GraysAnalogy · 16/07/2015 16:59

No, for some reason you want different standards for women accused of false accusation.

The same evidence that could convict a man of rape (and has in many cases), you've just poo pooed and said isn't good enough when applied to this situation. Why is that?

Im sure you'd appreciate this if you or a loved one was ever falsely accused of raping someone. Perhaps then you'd change your mind. One innocent person imprisoned is too many too.

Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 16:59

And I think that women should know that if they make a report of a rape the police do not have a duty to investigate it at all and in addition if the police don't believe you (for any reason) there is nothing to stop them not only failing to investigate the report you have made but also beginning an investigation into whether you have made a false accusation which involves no duty to investigate the rape claim.

Would you feel happy reporting a rape knowing all that?

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thedancingbear · 16/07/2015 16:59

offred, but clearly there are safeguards. Given what bigoted, misogynistic, shite-brained, rape-myth-believing twunts the police and CPS are (as a class, like), it strikes me as almost miraculous that the number of false-rape-claim convictions is less than 1% of the number of rape convictions. Clearly, something is working.

I don't like it because I think one rape victim who has been raped and then imprisoned for 'lying' is too many

I agree, but one rapist who gets away with it is one too many too.

fattymcfatfat · 16/07/2015 17:01

I don't understand why it is so hard for some people to accept that some women really are callous, vindictive and will purposely try to ruin lives.
That needs punishing. Just because they are a woman does not make them any less nasty than a man.

GraysAnalogy · 16/07/2015 17:02

Would you feel happy reporting a rape knowing all that?

It doesn't matter what I feel, because as a rape 'victim' myself my feelings shouldn't influence how another different crime is investigated.

Original poster
Offred · 16/07/2015 17:02

I don't want different standards. Women are frequently told 'beyond a reasonable doubt' is the reason rapists are not successfully prosecuted.

It's not about 'beyond a reasonable doubt'

It's about the conflict of interest in the police investigating both rape and false accusations and the lack of safeguards to prevent inadequate policing/prosecution.

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