What do you all think about single sex education?

[IsItStupid]

I was thinking about future schools for DC, and I started thinking about single sex education. My apologies if there are lots of threads about this, I didn't find many in a quick search.

I am conflicted, because I whole-heartededly disapprove of single sex workplaces etc and I think that your sex shouldn't really impact your education. I want an equal society and I guess that I think single sex is perhaps against that?

On the other hand, I was educated in a single sex environment between the ages of five and eighteen and I loved it. I think it played a real role in my confidence and my choice to study three sciences in sixth form. I know that each science had forty girls enrolled (there were about sixty in my year group) and mathematics was higher still, about fifty girls. Only four or five girls didn't do any form of science or maths.

I went to a school that was very much a "blue-stockings" school and there was a message of "women can do anything" but it was somewhat hidden in the background- I don't think many of us truly realised the need for such a message until we finished school. It just never occurred to many of us that other people didn't think that women were equally capable.

I suppose I'm trying to figure out how I feel about single sex education by comparing how I think it's ultimately inimical to how I think the future should look against the fact I had such a positive experience that made me into the feminist I am today!

What do you all think?

Also, if this thread has been done to death, I apologise! Please point me in the direction of good previous threads about this topic.

Yes, I do think that is something to do with it being a traditional independent school.

I suppose it depends how narrowly you define "education" I have always wanted my dc educated in the broadest sense of the word the exams should be the by product and not the purpose . I agree that academically girls may do better in single sex schools , but there are a whole host of other skills which we should be bringing to their education which are nothing tondo with academics .

I went to all girls secondary (comp) and it was definitely right school for me. Definitely a sense that no subjects were 'off limits' and the school had a good reputation fir sciences (sadly my D in a level biology showed my talents lay elsewhere).

My DD is only 6 and I would consider single sex for her, but wouldn't be the deciding factor.

If I were in the Uk, I'd definitely want my dc in mixed environments, except would be looking closely at what single sex environments offer between the formative ages of 11-16. But - for where I am in the UK - that would seem to be a case of hoping your dc were bright enough to have the option, because all the single sex schools are all academically selective (except some private schools that seem to offer nothing particularly special over and beyond swimming pools and the like).

Actually, it looks like we might well not be in the UK and will have no choice… in and some ways that's freeing, because it reminds us that the message and learning from home is as important - if not more so - than the message from school.

Our local girls secondary school is not selective.

I suspect (but can't be bothered to check right now!) that there are non selective schools single sex schools elsewhere in the borough, as we have a lot of religious secondary schools. In fact there is definitely one I read about in the papers the other day that's all girls! Selecting on religion is still selecting though but YKWIM.

OTOH selective by religion, can cause its own problems.

dh and I both went to single sex secondary schools. I changed to a boys school at sixth form whereas dh stayed at the same school through to eighteen. We both decided that there was no way we wanted our children to go to single sex schools and it was one of the reasons we moved.

Our attitude has been partially shaped by having a boy and a girl very close in age and wanting them to go to the same school and partly by our school experiences. I'm really happy with the school they go to right now so have no regrets.

We did also move country though so the schooling system is quite different. For example maths is compulsory to grade 11 as is at least one science and one humanities subject. I've not heard any of their friends (or the school counselor) talk about subjects in relation to sex, although I know that there are similar concerns about STEM subjects at university. ds has chosen to do physics as his specialism, but it was chemistry that was most popular (biology and physics are both seem as harder). dd is looking more at biology or geology as that's where her interests lie.

At the honours student celebration we went to there were more girls than boys receiving the highest honours (for getting over 90% across the board). dd doesn't seem to have any problem being heard, although I think that's more because she comes from a very argumentative family than anything else.

I went to a single-sex senior school, I thrived at STEM subjects, and in particular mathematics.

I went on to read mathematics and statistics at university, and the university had an annual intake of 12 for mathematics and statistics at the time. As you could take a three or four year programme (I took the latter), the maximum number of undergrad students reading maths + stats at any one time was 48.

There were 43 of us during my first year, only six of us female, and each of us females had gone to single-sex schools. The male students were a mix of single-sex and co-ed schools.

During my final year, there were a total of 47 maths + stats students, 11 of whom were female. One of these 11 had come from a co-ed school.

These figures prove nothing, they're just ones I collected in my head (well I was reading statistics), but they've stuck with me. I do sometimes question whether, if I'd had gone to a co-ed school, whether my 'talent' at STEM subjects would have been nurtured like it was at the single-sex I attended.

My husband also attended a single-sex senior school, but both of us had gone co-ed for pre-prep and prep, so that's what we're doing with our children.

Our son (4) is attending a co-ed pre-pre/prep, we hope our newborn daughter will attend the same school, but when it comes to senior schools it will be single-sex.

That's very interesting Cordelia I'll tell my dil that. Because out GD is good at the stem subjects.

I've been thinking about this. My dh is not in favour of single sex education, as he feels that his experience at an all boys grammar school did nothing for his social skills.

I went to a (crap) coed comp, and I always assumed that our dc would go to coed schools, but now that our oldest (a dd) is going into Y4, I'm finding myself more and more in favour of her going to an all girls school, though would like ds to go to a mixed school, I think.

My observations re it being thought that maths or anything 'hard' is for boys, that boys are 'better' at sports etc, subtle though they are are making me really favour a single sex secondary education for my dd.

I'm thinking along the lines that there are very few environments and situations in life where girls/women are 'the best' and that are geared towards the needs of girls and women, and adolescence is the best time to experience this.

Personally I think single-sex boys schools uphold the patriarchy whereas single sex girls schools go someway to counteracting it.

I've noticed that quite a few women interviewed on the Life Scientific (R4 Tuesday mornings) have been to single-sex schools, but I don't know the actual stats - it might just be that I notice it in particular because I've been to a single-sex school. Also, some of them are of an age where they'd have gone to grammar schools, and I think there was a lot higher percentage of single sex schools before comprehensive education became more widespread.

But I do think that at a single sex school, you miss out on a lot of the constant every day sexism, because the boys just aren't there to hassle you. They'll probably still get that out of school. And school is only part of life - we saw boys on the school bus, at evening clubs, at parties, down town - it's not like the whole of life becomes single sex, and they can still learn to socialise and so on.

If you don't have a near in age brother or other close family or family friends with near in age boys then it's not necessarily that straightforward to socialise with boys outside of a dating type setting.

My school had no connection with boys school, and ran enough after school activities that I didn't do any outside of school (I did choir, sports, art, acting etc). I have a much older brother and a much younger male cousin and all my parent's friends had much older children. Only a couple of friends had close in age brothers either. So I didn't spend very much time with boys in a 'normal' setting for five years. I'm not sure that's very healthy really.

The boys me and my friends did come across got idolised a bit despite the fact that they were mostly really not very nice at all - generally they went to the local boys schools, were incredibly full of themselves and lacked social graces to say the least. Some of my friends had really rubbish relationships with them and I felt deeply unattractive. Of course the same could be just as true for teens at co-ed schools but it's not what I observe in my children and their friends. They don't tend to have many opposite friends but they do think of them as just being people.

I went to a single-sex all-through independent school, which because it was so small didn't have enough resources to teach equipment-heavy subjects like woodwork, metalwork, ceramics, and some PE. And due to this, science suffered as well. I remember being taught a very content-light and ideological version of O-level chemistry by a teacher with no chemistry qualifications, in a wooden shed lab where most of the chemicals were kept on open shelves on the walls, and were several years old and degraded. It's a wonder I even passed it. And no great surprise I didn't choose to pursue science to A-levels. This wasn't in the 50's either, but in 1984.

Yes, the girls' grammar schools with a solid academic track record may have been very good on STEM. But the same wasn't always true in some corners of the private sector, and I actually think girls have historically been disadvantaged in science because their schools have not seen the subject as important for girls. My old school no longer exists and I can't say I'm surprised.

Mintyy , IsItStupid,

This is anecdotal and in no way backed up by facts (i.e. wider peer statistics) . Just our experience. DS had co-ed primary education, secondary SS boys (up to and including 6th form) . I think it has been fantastic for him, based on - he is happy, very positive school experience and the academic results have worked out so far (waiting for A level / university acceptance.) He has done humanities - English , History and the like so maybe he is the mirror image of the idea of the STEM girl doing better at a SS girls school. We (and of course Ds was part of that) chose SS education at secondary for our son. I know it is more usual to accept that SS education is good for girls. I think it can be good for boys as well.

I did fine at a mixed GS-turning-comp ... I knew I wanted to to sciences so on finding myself the only girl in physics and chemistry and one other in double maths, took the 'if you can't join them, beat them' attitude.I was curiously unbothered by the fact that so many girls opted out of sciences from O-level onwards.

DD goes to a girls' GS. She's just finished GCSEs and is on a trajectory towards becoming an engineer, having just won an Arkwright scholarship. This might still have happened in a mixed school, but quite possibly not. In a girls' school it's obvious that if there's a tech club or there's crest/go4set type awards, it's girls who are supposed to be doing them. She's been on some tech events where she's had to participate in mixed teams and found that absolutely fine - she has no expectation of boys running the show or talking over her so it just doesn't happen.

Up until yr5 she was sure she'd prefer a mixed school, but that changed in yr6 - partly because the girls seemed better able to buckle down to work than (some of) the boys, and partly because visiting various schools she felt most at home with the one we chose.

We will consider single sex for dd at secondary.

I wish there were state options but there aren't.

There are 2 girls schools we could choose from. One is close, tiny (1 class per year, practically 1-2-1 tuition in upper school), low fees for a private but a catholic school. We are atheists and whilst I respect others' faiths I don't know how this would work in practice. We would do our own sex ed but I don't know what else would be different. It is also under risk of closure, and is so small I'd wonder about the range of facilities.

The other is bigger but still a lot smaller than the co ed privates. It is a bit further away and is much more expensive. We have visited it. Seemed good. Dp is very keen.

Neither is academically selective and they don't do as well in the league tables as the local co ed privates (who are academically selective).

Dd isn't that academically able but loves science (as much as you can say of a primary aged DC) and wants to be a scientist when she grows up. She is arty and musical too.

She says she would like a girls school because she finds the boys in her class naughty and disruptive. She says it's always them with their hands up, they also dominate mixed pe lessons. She doesn't socialise with them. She does describe herself as a tomboy though as opposed to the girly girls. She hates pink/ princesses etc.

I don't know- we have a few years to think about it.

She does describe herself as a tomboy though as opposed to the girly girls

If I were you I would discourage her from using those expressions.

I can only talk from my experience, having been to a mixed school, but I'd like to counter the suggestions made up thread about what mixed schools teach girls.

- to "dumb down" so boys don't think you're too clever? Quite the opposite in my case. I learned that actually boys weren't that hard working or smart and I had more skill and confidence than them. Came out as Dux in my final year - in fact all three top academic positions went to female students. This pattern was repeated in the year prior to mine and the year after.

- to roll your skirts up so you're one of popular girls? A bit of this aged 13- 16. After that we mostly we just hung out as friends with the boys. We'd grown up with them, after all, they were harmless. We learned not to take any shit from boys and to talk to them as equals not as gods. This was far more mature than the simpering whimpering gossipy behaviour from the girls at the girls school.

- to imbibe messages from your teachers that boys are good at science and girls are good at talking? I dunno, I was good at maths but not at science. The science prizes went to my female friend.

- that being studious and female won't get you as much attention as being noisy and male. Actually it was the females who were pains in the arse and who talked too much in class and who acted up. The boys were sullen and brow-beaten! Looking around my school friends now on FB, the ones who have been most successful in careers etc are an equal mix of male and female.

In NZ, though, so my experience may not be relevant to UK. NZ was pretty pro-feminist in the 1990s when I went through school.

Looking back I think I was the one who dominated and always had my hand up. I was a total pain. Still am.

Just on reflection. If we think that empathy is an important trait, and we think that getting to know the 'other' promotes empathy, then why would we encourage separation?

As others have said it seems as though mixed ed favours boys and girls do better in single ed. A friend of mine's son goes to a primary school where the girls and boys are taught separately but play together in the playground which seems to be a good idea. I went to a mixed school until I was 16 and then to a girls' school for 6th form. My main observation was that most of the girls appeared to be obsessed by boys to a greater extent than we were from a mixed school. There were only a couple of male teachers on the staff and the one who was in his 20s got a lot of attention which I couldn't really understand as he wasn't good-looking at all.Similarly if the windows were being cleaned by a man or there were workmen around most of the other girls couldn't take their eyes off them.

I've done a lot of digging into the research on this topic, (DoE, NSPCC, Centre for Longitudinal Research, etc)

My conclusion is that, very sadly, the patriarchal upbringing and implicit misogyny which has survived so long is still alive and well amongst adolescents and, with the power and ubiquity of the internet, is thriving in all sorts of new ways.

A girls school setting for a 11-16 year old may be a safe haven in which she can achieve and gain confidence before dealing with the "storm" of prejudice and everyday sexism.

My snapshot summary is, that for girls schools:

• academic achievement is higher
• Maths, Physics and sciences are chosen more often (less so in co-ed because of gender stereotyping)
• women tend to earn more and rise to higher ranks in their professions
• there are fewer cases of recorded bullying
• there are fewer cases of in school sexual harassment or abuse (some stats quote as high as 1 in 3 for girls aged 11-16 in co-ed settings)

The argument posed against girls schools nearly always boils down to "I went to a single sex school and it was full of bitchy girls and eating disorders".

However, these sparse anecdotes ignore that the same issues happen in a co-ed schools. Eating disorders are a nationwide issue and school setting is hardly ever listed as a causal factor. Nor do I buy this idea that girls would somehow stop being "bitchy" just because some boys are in the class/corridor or playing footie over there. If anything, I here anecdotes of "competing" for their attention in unhealthy and degrading ways. This has nothing to do with school setting.

My final point is that most girls schools I have seen are much more focussed on the adolescent needs and issues for girls and are also better set up to identify and support girls, not least because they don't need to dedicate resource to boys.

ALL THAT SAID .... all our daughters are different and there is a huge element of luck with peer groups.

I think you're right about most of that. As you say, our daughters are all different. Mine ( just about to move into the sixth form of her girls' GS) finds it suits her very well. I don't think she's been aware of any bullying in her year or much 'bitchiness'. She's noted that some of the so- called 'popular group' are quite boy- obsessed but they're a minority.

I'd agree with that MN164 - but with the caveat that single sex schools can end up catering to "typical" girls/boys and ignoring the outliers - some boys' schools end up competing in machismo and sports prowess, while some girls' schools officially encourage maths, sciences, and looking to careers but in reality assume STEM subjects are for the foreign students and you should just study what interests you.

Though at the same time mixed schools can have more obvious problems. Personally I found it easier in a single-sex school not being interested in boys, as you could pretend you didn't really know any. I would though have loved company when I was the only person interested in hanging around the computer room at lunchtimes, and very envious of lads on my gap year who had had lots of support and company in their geeky hobbies. Whether I'd have felt welcomed by them age 13 is another question - on the whole I think neither sex is missing much if they don't contact the other from the ages of 12-17...

Quality of individual schools, teachers, and peer groups are going to be more important than same/mixed-sex, religion, state/private, etc.