Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism 101

45 replies

Jessica2point0 · 25/06/2015 18:06

The idea of this thread is a sort of safe space, where people can ask questions / have discussions without having to read / reference academic papers on feminism. I'm hoping to encourage people who don't (and/or don't want to) identify as feminism to join the debate.

So, if you have any questions or a passing interest in feminism, please come along and have your say!

OP posts:
Garlick · 26/06/2015 18:08

Back in the prehistoric 60s/70s, children weren't gendered as much as they are now. Although my dad was a massive bully who demanded 'traditional wife' behaviour of Mum, we all - girls and boys - learned how to mend a bike, do woodwork, change a plug and so on, and how to cook, clean and sew. As far as I know, most kids did. We certainly thought the girl in our year who'd never been asked to do manual work was a bit odd.

All the same, I unconsciously absorbed the message that 'wives do the home stuff' and married a prat who got a really good deal out of me - not only did I beaver around being a traditional wife, but I also held down a challenging career, managed our money and put up shelves! I can't say how much of that was due to my parents' practical role modelling, though. It could have been the emotional roles I was following. My parents weren't 'equal' in any sense; neither was my relationship.

In the present day, I do call out sexism and have become really good at doing it so the person knows they're in the wrong but can't call me rude. I worked in sales, so this was fairly essential.

A long time ago, I was the credit controller for a local retail company. An angry customer came in to discuss a late payment letter, which was signed 'A. Garlick, Credit controller.' He was most upset when I appeared and started yelling that he wanted to see a man. Okay, I said, and called Dave out from the stockroom. I said to the customer 'This is Joe, he works in the stockroom. He's a man. I am the credit controller, Ms Garlick. Which of us would you prefer to sort out your bill?'
I'm happy to say the whole shop applauded Wink

laurierf · 26/06/2015 18:09

Jessica I think that's true, but on a thread in Relationships there was a poster talking about how his DD had no role model to do things like mowing the lawn and rewiring a plug because these were 'man jobs' and all the men he knew did them and the women didn't. My mum was a SAHM for much of my childhood (actually until I was about 14 too) but as she used to do all the rewiring of plugs and stuff like that (dad worked very long hours so it would never get done if she didn't) and so it wouldn't have ever occurred to me that they were 'man jobs'! Still, purple, working in construction is a pretty good example to your DC!

Garlick · 26/06/2015 18:10

Well, I fucked up Dave/Joe's name, but you get the gist!

laurierf · 26/06/2015 18:17

Ha - good for you Garlick!

I think it's true that kids were expected to do more manual work - although I wasn't a child of the 60s/70s, I had older parents than my peers and I think that helped. I definitely saw her do more and did more than my friends and their mums. My dad was a right old sexist at times towards my mum (though not his DDs) but, as I got into my teens, I'd call him out on it every time and he actually did get better and then started calling us out when we showed signs of taking her for granted.

Jessica2point0 · 26/06/2015 18:27

I wonder how big a role capitalism plays in gendering people. These days we're surrounded by so many idealised images of what we should be, that must be hard to overcome.

I've never mown a lawn, but do teach the kids in school how to wire a plug! The poster in relationships will find it's on the GCSE physics course (or the one I teach at least) so his DD should learn in school.

OP posts:
Jessica2point0 · 26/06/2015 18:30

garlick, the boys in our school learn to cook. I don't know for sure, but I imagine most schools teach the same tech lessons to girls and boys. There would (quite rightly) be outrage if they didn't.

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 18:39

I think you are right that capitalism is a key factor Jessica.

Garlick · 26/06/2015 18:39

I think it's great that schools are teaching more all-round life skills now :) They do stuff about budgeting & banking, too, don't they?

Garlick · 26/06/2015 18:40

I think you are right that capitalism is a key factor Jessica.

Yeah, me too. You can sell more things if girls/boys and women/men have to have different ones.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 18:53

Also, you can sell more things if you make people want more things. Wanna sell more clothes? Sell the idea that imagr is important. Ditto make up, gym membership etc. Magnify the existing disparity between focus on men's attractiveness and women's. Use some other message to sell to men - status etc.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 18:53

Image, not imagr!

Jessica2point0 · 26/06/2015 20:07

There isn't very much about budgeting and money where I work, but we're making massive improvements on mental health. It all falls under generic 'pshe' which is simply not taken seriously by most schools because it doesn't show up on league tables.

It doesn't matter so much about some of the things because the messages (drugs are bad, alcohol is bad, smoking is bad, taking care of your health is important) are very prevalent in general society. But I can't find where we teach what consent means, and that matters.

OP posts:
laurierf · 26/06/2015 21:10

I can't find where we teach what consent means, and that matters

wow, absolutely should be part of pshe

Jessica2point0 · 26/06/2015 21:19

laurie, we do teach that if a person doesn't agree to sex then that's rape. But we don't teach the nuances - that consent has to be at the time of sex, it has to be ongoing, it has to be given freely and by a person with capacity. I really do need to find a way to change that.

OP posts:
laurierf · 26/06/2015 22:04

Jessica - I think particularly the "person with capacity" aspect. So many girls from school who thought they'd not been assaulted/raped, only just realising in their 30s…

Jessica2point0 · 26/06/2015 23:01

I almost raised it with the deputy head when I came across the cup of tea analogy. But then I don't really know how to implement it in school without getting loads of complaints from parents accusing the school of assuming the boys are potential rapists. Maybe it'd be easier if I taught in a girls school.

I think this is a good example of where I avoid acting on my feminist principles because it might be to my own detriment.

OP posts:
laurierf · 26/06/2015 23:56

I think that's a really hard one too. I don't know the answer and I certainly don't know what you ought to do about it (hence my earlier question) because I know I'm compromising my principles and feel like I'm throwing other people under the bus for my livelihood… and I'm sure there are all sorts of unconscious privileges going on with that…

All I can say is this: I have mutual friends from schooldays (we had a boys and girls school but interacted a lot) and I see how these men are doting husbands and fathers, and I see their posts that display a strong social conscience… but I also know what went on with intoxicated girls from school when they were teenagers. I find it hard to look at the man in his 30s and judge him on what he did in his teens… I just wish someone had made 'consenst' clearer to both the girls and the boys in their teens.

BertrandRussell · 27/06/2015 07:19

Would you get complaints if you used the cup of tea thing with teenagers? Maybe in a wider context of pressurising people into crime or drugs or more alcohol and letting them come to the point about sexual consent through discussion? I don't know though- as a parent of teens inwould welcome it, but I am constantly amazed at the things people are horrified at schools for doing.........!

Jessica2point0 · 27/06/2015 10:48

I honestly don't know. When I was doing alcohol awareness with year 8 I found that we do talk about the fact that alcohol can make a man more likely to rape someone and didn't get complaints (that I know of). And I think the cup of tea analogy is quite non-threatening. So maybe I'm just being a wimp (and I'm a bit scared of the deputy head who is in charge of PSHE).

OP posts:
LaurieJuspeczyk · 29/06/2015 13:31
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread