Jewish sect in Stamford Hill 'bans' women from driving children to school

[OliveCane]

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/mothers-face-ban-from-driving-their-children-to-orthodox-jewish-schools-in-stamford-hill-10280936.html

Its shocking that this has been on going until now in London and nothing has been done about it! Imagine if 'Jewish' was replaced by 'Muslim', there'd be a nation wide uproar!

See all that sentence means to me is that they don't really consider mothers to be parents!

Mothers: corruptible influence with the cheek to drive their offspring to school.

Parents: rightfully outraged men.

"In medieval Eastern Europe, the Barons had the Droit de Seigneur, ie they could have sex with any bride on her wedding night. To prevent this, Orthodox Jews would shave a bride's head to make her unattractive. But in order to preserve her self-esteem she would then wear a beautiful wig out of doors and a pretty scarf indoors."

This is most probably a myth. There's no evidence that Droit de Signeur was ever practiced in medieval Europe.

If the Baron wanted to do that I'm not sure shaving anyone's head would stop him

Is this a tremendously early example of victim blaming and rape myths? Oh well he wouldn't have done it if you didn't have such lovely hair.....

Reminds me of that tremendously helpful email that I have had sent to me about 6 times with top tips to avoid being raped.

One of them just goes:

1. (or whatever). When rapists in prison were surveyed, none of them had attacked a woman with short hair.

Oh right helpful, thanks!!!! So the advice presumably is to shave all your hair off, which most women / girls aren't going to do, and then because they didn't if anything happens well they made themselves appealing to rapists didn't they! Oh and obviously it's cobblers anyway. So, helpful.

So much rubbish isn't there. Anyway that was a total aside feel free to ignore it

those Charedi Jews used to come here for their summer hols (until they were banned from university accommodation.....for.....'lighting candles...hmmm...ok) and they are so closed, they do not even LOOK at non Jews... (and they speak Yiddish - but so quietly one could not be sure).

Some of this is starting to sound borderline antisemitic.

I live in an area immediately adjacent to Stamford Hill (am not Jewish) and although it is fair to say that it's a very closed community, it's also quite complex and varied society with lots of different sects and factions, who probably all have slightly different takes on this story. There is an interesting blogger who tweets as ifyoutickleus with an ironic, sometimes quite critical analysis of the internal workings of the Stamford Hill Charedi community.

I'm not trying to defend the letter, btw, just for the avoidance of all doubt - there clearly is a massive problem in Charedi society with patriarchal authority and with children and young people being effectively denied entry into mainstream British society because they are so segregated from it, and because much of their education is designed to keep them within their own community and deprive them of the skills needed to survive outside that enclave.

But I'm sure there isn't a universal response to the driving ban, it is presumably this weekend's hot topic of conversation. You do see Charedi women driving, though not that often. In a cynical mood I might speculate whether the Rabbis just feel threated by the fact that the women are better drivers than them - the general driving style in Stamford Hill can be described as 'erratic' at best, hair raising at worst.

What is the right response to this edict? From those of us who are outside the community.

Can I point out that Hassidics and orthodox Jews are not one and the same. Hassids are ultra orthodox. There are hundreds of thousands of orthodox Jews that live within and alongside mainstream society perfectly happily. Hassidics, however, consider themselves morally superior and have no interest whatsoever in joining mainstream society. They do not care whether everyone else appreciates their rules or not.

Such is the closed nature of the group and with the lack of education available to the female Hassids in particular, many don't question their lives at all. If anything, the women pity their non Hassidics neighbours for not being protected the way they are.

Furthermore, due to the fact they vote collectively, they are often courted by politicians. For a relative small group, they have surprising political clout.

Yes I was a bit surprised at the people who turned out for the opening of the school I posted upthread. And was wondering how they had such pull. That explains it.

I don't think there is a "right response" Vivacia.

Just to add to the list of incredibly non-mainstream things one of these groups gets up to.

Whirlpool, it's exactly the same as the Muslim attitude I have heard defending not just hijab, but the more extreme coverings up to and including burka: that covering up protects women from men. I have heard it from educated Muslim women.

Completely different to the "I wear hijab because it brings me closer to my religion and gives me spiritual strength". That is true choice, and one that I can relate to, given that I live a secular life, but prefer to cover my head and dress modestly when I pray.

Quite possibly,DavidTennant, but if it is myth, it probably developed from the belief that rape was worse for a married woman because it was also adultery.

My take on this, and the whole head covering thing is that women often choose to do things that are inherently anti-woman or anti-feminist because they do what they have to to survive within their communities and within patriarchy.

Come the revolution.....

They are very very extreme. Like the amish, that's the only thing I can think that people on the thread might have a reference for.

No, by and large the Amish are mild compared to other religions but they live a lifestyle in public view that is very much at odds with integrating aspects of the modern world into their lives, which makes them appear far more extreme than they really are inside their social structure. Teenagers can chose to opt out of being Amish without having their worlds come crushing down on their heads or be pressured they are going to hell for making the wrong choice. Chances are you work side by side in the workplace with adults of more 'worldly' religions whose children would fare far worse if they decided to try and 'leave the flock', so to speak.

Which group would you compare them to, for posters who have not been exposed to / had experience of these extreme religious sects in the UK, that they might have heard of?

I chose the Amish because people are aware of the through various films and things, and are generally aware that they keep themselves separate and live lives that are very out of step with mainstream society.

I struggled to think of anyone here in the UK except the brethren, and of course most people aren't aware of the brethren either. People have heard of extreme Muslim groups through the media but due to the connotations of extreme violence that isn't appropriate to use as a comparison.

I can't think of any other groups in the UK who lead such separate lives and are known about widely but I'm probably missing something.

We do have a lot of fairly fundamental evangelical types around here as well, who tend to go on a bit, and also people following more "traditional" family set-ups and dressing modestly and the father is the head of the household and so on, but they are in mainstream schools and jobs and mix with others and so forth.

Of course this is all in my neck of the woods so I'm probably guilty of missing a large well-known group elsewhere!

Which group would you compare them to, for posters who have not been exposed to / had experience of these extreme religious sects in the UK, that they might have heard of?

I cant answer that, I am not sure anyone could. There are no short cuts I think, only deep research on the specific Jewish religious sect in question and then the answer would make it unique to that sect anyway.

My take on this, and the whole head covering thing is that women often choose to do things that are inherently anti-woman or anti-feminist...
How is a woman covering her head anti-woman or anti-feminist?

Just to clarify (as my previous post wasn't clear) I do not agree with women being imposed a driving ban. I am pro-choice and agree that children are a vulnerable subgroup that should be protected from abuse.

That being said, I disagree with some people (not necessarily on this thread) who feel that certain groups of people/women need "saving" because they don't conform to western expectations of how they should be living or raising their children. Particularly if these women (for the sake of this argument, but applicable to both genders) are not asking to be saved. I believe there should be support networks in place for those who want to opt-out of high "pressure" communities but I wouldn't assume they have no choice or are unhappy just because they were born in to it and are adhering to the beliefs.

Yeah, that's exactly what I want to do. 'Save' people, like some kind of Lady Bountiful. You've got me.

Obviously I didn't direct that part to you, as I stated in brackets, but if it hit a nerve or you can relate to it then you know yourself better than I do.

The Amish used to both shun outsiders and shun any of their children who rebelled and went Away. This was why they split from I think the Mennonites who were conservative but welcomed the return of their wayward sheep.

Then the Amish relaxed quite a bit, in particular almost encouraging a couple years out in mainstream America, then welcoming their kids back - rather I think this happened because so many children were going off and because many families started needing the money from a member with a paying job - it was around the same time as Amish Country tours started being a tourist attraction, again for the money.

My non-expert knowledge of history of religions suggests that religions under pressure either relax to welcome more members, or try to tighten control of the ones they already have, often splitting in the process - and politics usually being the driver.

The brethren who I know I have gone on about on this thread (but they are very interesting!) were a breakaway from the Plymouth Brethren who were not strict enough for them, so that ties in with your point there NotCitrus about external pressures leading to either relaxation or further isolation.

And they used to go to state schools (although were given the right to opt out of certain classes which had to go to court) but with the march of the internet etc it must have been nigh on impossible to ensure they weren't exposed to media in school and so I don't think they go to mainstream schools any more I heard they opened their own school a few miles down the road, I think many moved out that was as well as you don't see them on the high street so much any more.

Given that the Jewish population we are talking about here got one of their private schools into mainstream funding relatively recently, maybe they are slowly going the other way?

I find this stuff fascinating, it's probably quite obvious!

In the paper today (The Times) that they have changed their minds about this and they're ok with women drivers again.