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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anne Boleyn died today 1536

73 replies

Bombinate · 19/05/2015 08:53

Anne Boleyn was convicted of false charges of witchcraft, adultery and conspiracy and was beheaded today in 1536, so the psychopath Henry VIII could marry again. She would been so proud of her daughter Elizabeth I

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 20/05/2015 07:40

Henry spent years trying to legitimately annul his marriage to K of A, in the meantime Anne was accruing wealth, titles and favours for her family. Had K agreed to retire to a nunnery then I suspect the marriage with Anne would have continued for longer, she had demonstrated fertility with Elizabeth and subsequent pregnancies. I think Henry felt he was running out of time and he had risked everything (split with the pope etc) for Anne.

YonicScrewdriver · 20/05/2015 07:42

So at the start I doubt it seemed a huge risk to Anne. There's no reason to think she wouldn't have gone on to another pregnancy if she'd lived.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 20/05/2015 07:46

'I don't like the way she copied Henry VIII's sister in Scotland, leaving Katherine and Mary as collateral damage.'

How do you mean? Confused

I agree, I don't think Anne would have realized how risky it was.

JoanHickson · 20/05/2015 09:46

Henry's sister got a divorce so Anne got the idea Henry and Katherine could also from her.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 20/05/2015 09:47
Confused

I don't follow you at all, sorry. I don't know if I'm being obtuse. How do you know? Loads of people get divorces.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 20/05/2015 09:48

(I mean, obviously, less 'loads' back then, but I think it's a stretch to see Anne as arch-manipulator who'd have known what the divorce would entail for everyone involved.)

JoanHickson · 20/05/2015 10:03

Henry's sister was a Princess of England who married a King of Scotland. Grandmother to Mary Queen of Scotts That is how Elizabeth I left the English throne to James I.

Anne saw a King and Queen in Scotland get a divorce.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 20/05/2015 10:14

I know that.

I think it's a stretch to assume that's why things happened the way they did, and frankly I think it attributes a huge amount of guilt to Anne in a way I just don't see being very plausible.

JoanHickson · 20/05/2015 10:25

Oh I just brushed up and it's her second Husband, that Margaret divorced.

Anniegetyourgun · 20/05/2015 10:27

Capital punishment is always wrong however.

They didn't see it like that in those days.

The way my school taught it was that Elizabeth was very reluctant to do in MQOS but in the end pretty much had to; it's not certain that Mary knew about all the plots but by simply existing she was a focus for them. I think as well (this is a fairly new thought but I doubt it's original) Elizabeth needed to show she had the strength to execute a rival for the throne, otherwise others would be encouraged to have a go. She really couldn't afford to be seen as weak.

what hope did Anne, daughter of a country squire have of being treated better.

Second marriages are always a triumph of hope over experience - just check out the Relationships board! His first wife was a psycho bitch/never loved him/was only after his money (or, in the case in point, only married him for diplomatic reasons) but ours is real love so everything will be fine. Some things change a lot but human beings are still human beings when you get right down to it.

scallopsrgreat · 20/05/2015 10:29

That's a really good point Annie!

I'm failing to see how any of Anne's actions meant she was an arch-manipulator too. We are talking about Henry VIII here and you don't get much more manipulative than him. Although of course it isn't called manipulation because he's a bloke.

Henry held all the cards, Anne was just trying to grab some of them, understandably.

Anniegetyourgun · 20/05/2015 10:30

Oh, and in honour of the occasion:

PomeralLights · 20/05/2015 10:53

I'm not sure Anne had much choice really - neither manipulator nor trying to just grab some of the cards.

She saw what Henry had done to her sister who was cast aside once he was done with her and struggling to regain any sense of normality. Her marriage may well have become unhappy to the point of desperate - it's hard to know from this distance but I can't imagine many blokes dealing with their wife bring another mans mistress very well.

Her dad was pushing her into Henry's company, she became lady in waiting to CoA etc. Henry was bound to notice her. She refused him full sex maybe just because she still wanted to be attractive marriage material once Henry was bored? She may have held out thinking that CoA was so powerful (family) there was no way Henry would really divorce her.

All she had to do was live with being hated by CoA for a few years and resisting Henry - then she could go on and get married to someone nice.

Once it became apparent how much Henry loved the chase and was taking her 'only if we're married' thing seriously she had even fewer choices - she could hardly laugh in his face and say oh come on, you know I don't really fancy you right?

She had to continue the charade and pretend marriage to him was all she wanted. Didn't the amount of sex they had go down the pan quite quickly? Was that really all to do with Henry being pissed at having a girl and getting bored, or did Anne lose the will to keep up the pretence?

I probably don't know enough about her and there's evidence to refute the above but if not... I do wonder

JeanneDeMontbaston · 20/05/2015 11:37

I agree - I can't see how she could have controlled it, after a certain point.

tabulahrasa · 20/05/2015 11:57

I doubt she had much choice at any point...she couldn't tell henry she didn't want him at any point, I would but you're married would have been the safest response to him being interested, what else could she have said?

There really aren't many options when the king takes a fancy to you.

YonicScrewdriver · 20/05/2015 11:57

Well, quite. The power was all Henry's to say "if you don't put out, I'll find someone who will"

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 20/05/2015 12:01

I think she was in a bit of a no-win situation regarding the putting out or not. If she had she would have been a whore, adulteress, etc. She didn't so she's accused of manipulating him by refusing him.

LineRunner · 20/05/2015 12:03

Ann's speech from the scaffold moves me hugely. I wonder if I could ever be that brave for my daughter.

scallopsrgreat · 20/05/2015 12:05

Yep all very good points. Very little agency at all for poor Anne.

tabulahrasa · 20/05/2015 12:16

It's not even that though yonic - would you dare tell henry viii you didn't find him attractive? and he'd already proved that being unavailable because of someone else or even being married wasn't going to work.

It's entirely likely that she could have been uninterested in every way, physically and not interested in gaining power or money and it would still have played out the same way.

Between her family trying to use her and not having any choice at all once henry was interested in her, there's not a lot she could have done if she'd wanted to.

BitOutOfPractice · 20/05/2015 12:18

Oh I cannot tell you how much this thread has cheered me up on a very bad day. Loving this debate

SenecaFalls · 20/05/2015 14:08

For anyone on this thread who has not visited the Chapel of St. Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London, I highly recommend it. It really does bring home the personal cost of Henry's reign, with the graves of Anne Boleyn, Catherine Howard, George (Boleyn) Rochford, More, Fisher, and of course, Thomas Cromwell.

YonicScrewdriver · 21/05/2015 21:26

The Other Boleyn Girl was quite different to the book!

PuntasticUsername · 21/05/2015 22:16

Randomly sticking my nose in...I noticed today that some monthly history magazine (may have been BBC, not sure) I saw in Asda had Anne on the front cover, with headline "Did she really want to be Henry's queen?". Might be worth a look for anyone who, like me, has followed this thread with interest.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/05/2015 22:26

Yes, I saw that and meant to post! Might have been Bbc history or perhaps History Today.

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