Is rape culture real?

[JimBean]

Hi

I wanted to ask some experienced feminists about the concept of "rape culture". I hear the phrase alot these days mainly through social media, and it constantly annoys me because from my perspective it's not real.

It doesn't seem real to me because all the aspects that supposedly create rape culture, are things ive never heard of happening.

For example, alot of people mention victim shaming, things like "she was asking for it" or "well she shouldn't have been dressed like that". Iv'e just personally never heard anyone blame the victim, ever in my life.

Also often i hear the sentence "we need to stop teaching women to protect themselves and start teaching men that rape is not okay". This one in particular irritates me, because well.. i'm male, and i (as well as every other male ive ever met) was taught to think of rape as being about as okay as murder. Like, they say we aren't tought that, and we need to teach young men that it's not okay, but... we do? young men, all young men know it's not okay...? don't they? Perhaps i'm just sheltered, or surrounded by great people who treat rape as the horrific crime it is.

The people posting about it seem to be acting like the majority of people (or at least a large enough portion to make a noticeable social impact on rape victims) treat rape like it's not a big deal, which just doesn't seem right to me. I strive to keep an open mind, and it occurred to me that if so many articles are written about it that perhaps there is something i'm missing.

Thanks, looking forward to some insight :)

[MarvellousMarbles]

I think the recent 'Ride me all day for £3' bus advert was an example of rape culture thinking - sex as a commodity, and therefore one that you have a "right" to if you've paid your due.

Not you personally OP. I agree, rape is about as okay as murder.

[fattymcfatfat]

there you are OP. proof that people find it hilarious to joke about this. that they think commenting as etonian has is acceptable.

everyone else thank you for but please don't be sorry. it was not your fault. just as it wasn't mine. I learnt long ago that although it may hurt, I will never apologise for being the victim. it is not me who should feel guilt.

[PuffinsAreFictitious]

Fatty I believe you.

Rape culture is where there has been a woman raped and instead of suggesting that the type of person who is the perpetrator ie men stay indoors, the type of person who was the victim ie women are told that to be safe they should stay indoors.

It's the type of culture where groups if men shouting lewd comments to lone women is viewed as just fine, but a woman saying that she finds that uncomfortable is vilified.

Sorry, don't believe you've never seen that. Do you live in a cave?

[ezinma]

Since it is generally accepted that at least 1 in 20 men has committed rape, and probably two-to-three times as many have attempted to rape or committed a sexual assault, then it is almost certain that you do know a man, or several men, who fit this description. But the victims of sex crimes face enormous barriers to going public with their accusations. Four of these stand out:

1 Shame. I shouldn't have drunk so much; I shouldn't have let him walk me home; I should have tried harder to fight him off. The role of 'rape culture' here is to sustain these narratives of victim-blaming. The reality is that there is nothing a victim can do to cause her/his own rape; the only people responsible for rape are rapists.

2 Fear. Most rapes are committed by men well known to the victim. To accuse friends, (ex-)lovers, family members, co-workers of a sex crime may have huge consequences for the accuser, in terms of endangering friendships, making oneself a target for counter-accusation and revenge, etc. We're almost comfortable talking about rape as something awful that happens to unfortunate people, like an illness. But when a victim points to someone you know and says "he raped me", I think most people adopt a defensive posture of:

3 Doubt and disbelief. In my experience, when an accusation is made against a man who does not fit the tabloid prototype of a misogynist psychopath, many people adopt a kind of legal-ish position of withholding judgment – of treating both the accusation and the denial as equally plausible. They don't dismiss the allegation altogether, but without more 'proof' they don't feel they can support it either. Of course, the kind of 'proof' they want is impossible: there are rarely any witnesses to a rape. Rape culture works against the victim here in two ways. Firstly, the 50:50 'ratio of plausibility' is nothing like the actual ratio of true vs false allegations, which is certainly closer to 95:5. Secondly, I can't emphasise enough how isolating and traumatising it is to have been raped and not to be believed.

4 Effort. At every stage of the accusation/reporting/testifying process, it is always much harder to go on than to stop. There is always the temptation to say: all I need to do to make this easier on myself is to say "I'm not taking this any further". This, too, is part of the climate of rape culture. The victim needs to sustain her/his accusation indefinitely, for as long as any one person doubts or challenges it – look at the Ched Evans case to see that it can go on long after a rapist is convicted, imprisoned, and even released.

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

Your point 4 is a bit of a lightbulb for me ezinma, I've never heard that expressed before. Of course it is true - and something it's very hard not to buy in to, if you're supporting a traumatised woman.

We've all probably said it on supportive threads 'it would be great if you go to the police but if you can't bring yourself to do it, that's OK too.' That's a real example of how rape culture curtails women reporting rape, because it's sooooo bloody hard, and we all see it and (rightly) react accordingly.

[GinAndSonic]

fatty i beleive you

Ive talked about my rape and sexual abuse on mumsnet before, i dont really have the emotional energy for it today, but rape culture is real. If you were stabbed, you would report it. But most women who are raped or sexually assaulted dont report it. Ask yourself why. RAPE CULTURE.

Would you feel ashamed if you were stabbed? Would anyone ask you if you had let him believe that you might be up for being stabbed by the way you spoke to him, or looked at him, or danced? If you had admired a chefs knives, is it ok for him to stick one in you? And if you were stabbed, and had a big ugly scar that hurt sometimes if you touched it a certain way, or it was numb, or you hated people seeing it, or it reminded you of the really traumatic night when you were stabbed and you thought you would die, would people grow impatient with you and ask why you still have that bloody scar and cant you just move on?

People compare rape to mugging or burgalry or theft of some sort.
Its not theft. Its a stabbing. Its violent. Its an attack. It hurts. It scars.
Comparing it to taking a laptop is rape culture. You can replace a laptop. Its not comparable to being stabbed.

[FeijoaSundae]

Jim, there was a thread on Mumsnet maybe a year or so ago where women discussed whether they'd been a victim of any sort of sexual assault.

It ran for pages and pages and pages. 100s upon 100s of posts, with all bar a tiny handful of women detailing examples of sexual assault they'd been on the receiving end of, from the mundane to the downright upsetting, shocking and traumatizing.

For example, I've never been raped, but I've been groped countless times in bars, pubs and clubs. I worked as a barmaid for a short time and was touched and propositioned by men every day. I had my crotch grabbed once in the street in broad daylight by a 13-year scally who ran off laughing. I've been whistled at by groups of men, which isn't scary for some people, but I find it downright intimidating.

Nothing major, just low level stuff. Ask any woman, and you can pretty much guarantee that they will all have similar experiences to report. I'm lucky though, I've never been raped or abused.

I'm just re-reading your OP, and I see that you say rape culture is 'annoying' because from your perspective, it's not real.

Straight men don't tend to get raped by either men, so of course it's not real to you.

I wonder if you're actually going to come back to this thread and acknowledge the responses you've got.

[seaoflove]

Oh great, another man on Mumsnet asking the little women to explain feminism/rape culture, because they don't believe in it

[DuelingFanjo]

"For example, alot of people mention victim shaming, things like "she was asking for it" or "well she shouldn't have been dressed like that". Iv'e just personally never heard anyone blame the victim, ever in my life."

do you get out much?

I have been on a group page on facebook this week discussing a bus company's decision to use pictures of naked models holding a sign saying 'ride me all day for £3'. A man came on and said "as if you could get that for £3". Someone pointed out that what he was talking about was a female model who had been paid to pose for an advertising campaign, not a 'that'.

It is attitudes which reduce women to a 'that' which contribute to rape culture.

You are lucky not to have met anyone who would rape - how do you know though? Rapists don't advertise - indeed many rapists don't even know that what they have done is rape.

[GinAndSonic]

You almost certainly have met a rapist OP. Ive had 5 boyfriends, two are rapists. I went to school with boy who was jailed for rape at 17. My uncle has done time for rape. My friend was assaulted as a child by the family doctor. I could go on and on. You know a good handful of rapists, probably more, i only know of the ones i know that were found out / raped me. The ones who get away with it i will never know about. And since MOST RAPES ARE UNREPORTED there are certainly men i know who have raped that i will never know about.

[uglyswan]

So, OP, now a number of women have taken time out of their day and very bravely shared their experiences here. Others have provided you with high profile examples of rape culture and victim blaming in the media. So now we’ve played one round of “men demanding answers from women”, I think it’s your turn: You say, “Iv'e just personally never heard anyone blame the victim, ever in my life.” Prove it. Give me one example of a case where the victim was not publicly attacked, told that she wasn’t raped, that she was lying, that it was her responsibility etc. etc. One case in which all the blame was placed on the rapist and not the victim. Make my day, OP.

[Fleecyleesy]

I personally find the distinction between telling men not to rape and telling women to protect themselves very hard to understand.

It is clearly idiotic to suggest that a woman getting raped is her fault - rape is a crime, the responsibility for the crime lies with the rapist.

Campaigns asking women to protect themselves are often met with criticism though and I can see why in theory - but I don't understand this in the context of everyday life.

So specifically last week I went out with a group of women, we were all grown ups aged 25-35. When the night out was finished it was dark and late and we all live in a similar area but up to 5 miles apart. We made plans to get home ensuring that no member of the group was alone on their way home (unless in a car, most of the group did not have a car). Does that mean we are all rape apologists/perpetuating rape culture? Because we took steps to make sure everybody was not alone?

[scallopsrgreat]

Fleecy, the rape culture is that men don't feel the need to do that. I don't think women looking after themselves is perpetuating rape culture. Its the fact that they feel the need to which is the influence of rape culture.

Teaching and insisting men don't rape. Blaming rapists for raping. Tackling men's entitlement to sex is absolutely essential. It is the root of the problem. You can't teach women ways of avoiding rape because they can't leave their vagina anywhere. You are just pushing the problem elsewhere. Either on to a woman who finds herself in more unfortunate circumstances than your friends or on to the rapist who will just find other ways of raping women.

"It doesn't seem real to me ..." Of course it doesn't, OP. It doesn't affect you.

Are you going to come back and respond to the women on this thread? Or are you just a taker?

[Tequilashotsfor1]

Well has your post been answered jim?

[Fleecyleesy]

I get what you are saying Buffy.

But the only problem that I can see there is that the generation I am referring to on my night out were brought up in times 10-20 years ago where women were advised/trained/indoctrinated to protect themselves. All of us knew to look out for the others because of the era we grew up in (which you would consider to be a less enlightened time in terms of rape culture). So fundamentally am I supposed to advise my own daughter to protect herself and her friends in this same way that myself and my friends behave - despite it being a result of telling women to protect themselves?

[Yops]

I think there is a victim-blaming culture of sorts throughout our society. You should have locked the door/taken your laptop/not gone into that pub, you know what the locals are like etc etc. We don't really think people deserve to have their head kicked in or their goods stolen, but there is a sort of 'well, more fool you' attitude somewhere in our makeup.

[MarvellousMarbles]

Fleecy - A man is as likely (in fact, I think more so) to get beaten-up on his solitary way home late at night as a woman in the same position is to be raped/sexually assaulted. But I have never heard a group of men making careful plans to ensure that no member of their party is alone at any point on the way home (in the way that you describe you and your female friends doing). That's rape culture - women feel intrinsically vulnerable, at risk, in need of protection, unable to be alone, at fault if they are alone. Men don't.

[MarvellousMarbles]

So fundamentally am I supposed to advise my own daughter to protect herself and her friends in this same way that myself and my friends behave - despite it being a result of telling women to protect themselves?

Fleecy - I think you should advise your own daughter and son (assuming you have both, obviously) in exactly the same way about personal safety. They should know to trust their instincts, be sensible, watch out for dangerous situations etc. But neither of them should feel that they have a special need or responsibility to do so purely because of their gender.

[LurcioAgain]

Yops - I think you're right, and I have heard it described as a form of magical thinking. Underlying it is this feeling that "if I can identify what they did wrong, it won't happen to me, and I'll be safe." Victim blaming is often born out of fear. The alternative is admitting the world is a scary place and bad things happen to nice people through no fault of their own, and could happen to you.

But at the same time, it happens to a much, much greater extent and much more viciously with rape victims.

Fleecy - both my "close" calls have occurred when I've allowed men to walk me home to protect me from the very rare "stranger down the back alley." Both of those men I knew turned out to be far, far more dangerous than walking home alone would have been. (Mercifully in both occasions they were what I'd describe as coercive would-be rapists, hoping to paralyse me with fear into a state where I stopped saying no - and in both instances I managed to talk my way out of the situation, just. If you asked me what the odds were that both of them had successfully raped women using exactly this technique, I'd say well over 90%).