Tell me what you think of this article about men and boys (Philip Zimbardo interview in the Guardian)

[rootypig]

I'm interested to know what people think of this article. www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/may/09/philip-zimbardo-boys-are-a-mess

I don't disagree that men and boys are in trouble, though I would situate it in more of a political analysis - I think people are in trouble, largely because of the lack of meaningful, properly paid work. And I agree that porn must be hugely damaging to men (as well as to women). But I was shocked and appalled by many of the assertions made, which seem to be nothing more than lazy gender stereotyping (fathers do not love unconditionally and mothers do, women are interested in sex only when linked with romance, men do and act while women think and feel - I mean, bollocks to that, women are bloody doing things constantly, but it's often things that noone notices or attaches importance to). The article also notes that Zimbardo has no interest in gay men and boys - so he's certainly subscribing to a narrow view of gender in one key regard.

But the man is emeritus professor at Stanford and surely his views are based on experience and research. Am I wrong, do these stereotypes hold more than I would like to admit? Perhaps as a psychologist, he is reflecting the world as he finds it - and I do believe that children are raised in a heavily gendered way, which might produce these differences. Or am I right to think that it's offensive, and naive to think that elite universities are somehow free of the gendered ideas that the rest of the world holds?

His suggestions for change, incidentally, are things that I would support.

I've become increasingly convinced that many psychologists just make crap up to fit their own worldview.

This article has only served to reinforce that point of view.

This article made me roll my eyes so far that they almost got lost down the back of my brain. I see the Guardian has a response piece today.

Response piece

www.theguardian.com/science/sifting-the-evidence/2015/may/11/if-men-are-failing-we-need-to-look-to-the-future-not-at-lazy-stereotypes

I've just read this article this afternoon and I too thought it was a strange one for the Guardian. While I understand some of the of concerns he raises (once you get to the end of the article) my initial reaction was to be offended by the obvious - it's really the woman's fault for not being tough enough - assertions at the beginning of the article.

I thought it seems very contradictory as he gives the impression of a strong female unit working hard and supporting the family unit but then claims it is too feminised . He also says that boys don't get the emotional support they need in a family without a father figure but surely they will be more empathetic having spent so much time in female company?

Thanks for all your responses. At this point, I'm interested by my response to it - it was very Emperor's new clothes. On the one hand, I was sure it was a bag of shite. On the other, I doubted myself because of the authority of his position. And perhaps his gender (as a man, talking about men).

I have always given modern psychology much credence - and there is so much wonderful work, I know. But this has made me realise that I need to think twice.

cailin, I read about his prisoner experiment after this (I was familiar with the idea of the experiment, but not the details, and didn't realise it was him). It sounds like a total mess, not just unethical but utterly unscientific, as these things go

But he must be respected by (some of) his peers, to be in the position he's in?

Part of it too is I think he does have valid points and ideas mixed in, and for those of you who made it to the end of the article, his recommendations I thought were sound?

One of the meta issues I suppose is, does gender need to affect how we talk about gender? i.e. do we need to talk to men and boys about their problems, in their language - and this may not be language, but other forms of communication. As a man, should Zimbardo be entitled to speak to the male experience, as I feel only women can speak to the female one (in the first person)?

I am not a psychologist but as I understand it, there is a difference between boys' and girls' aptitude with language. My instinct is to say that this is a taught difference - but it is a difference nonetheless.

To be fair though, there are a large number of environmental scientists who hold professorships in the US who firmly believe that lie that humans are not contributing to climate change. Some of them have formed a group called PlantsNeedCO2. Just because someone has standing in their field, doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't barking

Apologies for lowering the tone yesterday. Just crossed my mind suddenly - thanks to those who engaged in the porn/know question!

The interesting thing (reading posts & what I was thinking as reading the article) was all this business about how mothers are (there there, unconditional love) and how fathers are (you need to work hard for your grades) etc, it struck me that it sounded like a combination of his own upbringing / his own family and maybe how things are done in his social sphere / peer group in the place that he lives? Because that was a massive generalisation and one that didn't even "ring true" so I think he was talking about HIM. IYSWIM.

Embarrassingly, that should say porn / knob, rather than porn / know, so now I've ended up mentioning penises even more than I initially intended to. Sorry to all those engaging in higher-brow conversations.

Whirlpool you weren't lowering the tone, it's important. I think that the men I've seen in porn have larger than average penises. They are also younger than average and slimmer than average. I am trying to evaluate it the way I would women, and am interested to note I have to think about it, it's not just a spontaneous realisation. Good three second insight into what it's like not to understand gender politics

I do not consider it an article, an article has an aim like a rifle and that piece is a shot-gun. Not even a hunting shot-gun for that matter, more like a double barrel sawn-off with a cut down taped stock for a pistol grip. You would hold up a bank with it. It startles and is guaranteed to both hit and miss anything and everything. Something like that, saying so many different things, people are bound to find something objectionable in it.

Penis size in porn is pretty straight forward to answer. Where are the statistically relevant small penises in commercial porn? Who are the male porn stars with small penises? The answers are nowhere and none.

I agree he seems to be talking from his own experience. In relation to porn, what I found quite disturbing was when he said

"With old pornography there were typically stories. There was a movie, like Deep Throat, and in the course of some interesting theme people were having sex. No it's only about physical sexual contact".

Really, has pornography ever been about the story other than just the physical act of sex? I also didn't like the line "It's always been difficult for boys to talk to girls because you are never sure what they want or what their agenda is." WTF! To me boys were just friends, some you liked, some you didn't, I never saw myself as having an agenda with male or female friends.

I don't agree that it is a feminised environment that makes boys retreat to virtual worlds for comfort, but I do agree there is a problem with their view of sex and how they behave with girls/women. It would be interesting to know how many of the film/virtual game/interactive role play software manufacturers and programmers are women.

Yes, his portrayal of girls and women ranges from lazy to unpleasant.

I suppose, to be very generous, there is always some agenda when speaking to other people, but most of the time it's nothing more than, "I want to know more about you, because so far, we get on okay, and I want to know what interesting things I can learn from you, and what things we have in common, and if we can go for a bike ride together."

There have been some articles written by women programmers in gaming, but I'm too tired to see if I've got any links.