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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Apologist for discriminatory interview - in the Guardian of all places!

54 replies

Blu · 05/05/2015 19:41

Here

In the Dear Jeremy column a woman asks how to deal with the fact that she was asked, by two men, at interview, how she would "cope with the work bearing in mind that she had 2 children."

Jeremy more or less tells her to calm down and says "At a cool, factual level, it is indisputably the case that when women are carrying the majority duties of bringing up young children they need to be more inventive than their male partners in programming their various work and home responsibilities."

At a cool factual level perhaps people should equally consider that a woman may be with a SAHD (or other Mum), employ a nanny, or juggle on an equal basis in every domestic and childcare issue with the child's father / her partner / whatever. And in that case, Jeremy, on a cool factual level, making an assumption that the woman in front of you is a woman who carries the majority of the duties and as he later says 'chooses' to do all the emergency runs to school when illness strikes, is quite simply prejudice.

On a cool factual level, unless you ask all candidates the same question , it is based in assumption and prejudice.

And using your column to openly support such prejudice just strengthens the complacent male club in which men in the workplace pressure female partners to pick up the childcare slack, and penalise other women for doing the same.

Disgraceful and shocking.

OP posts:
Blu · 05/05/2015 22:56

MNHQ should invite him in for a live webchat - so we can put him right on a few things.

OP posts:
Mashtag · 05/05/2015 23:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bluestocking · 05/05/2015 23:24

Is it the case that calling your son Jeremy is consigning him to an agonising life as a suppurating cockend? I have met one nice Jeremy but there seem to be an awful lot of dire ones out there.

stoopstoconker · 05/05/2015 23:28

I had an arse of a line manager 30 yrs ago who told my colleague (at interview) 'we just have to make sure you're not pregnant....' Shock

Wibblypiglikesbananas · 05/05/2015 23:28

Read this on Saturday and thought exactly the same, OP!

PuffinsAreFictitious · 06/05/2015 09:59

Can't remember if it was on here or elsewhere that I said I was asked similar in an interview. In reply, I was told that, while yes, it was technically not legal, I shouldn't make a fuss, because it's a legitimate question and blah blah blah. By men, unsurprisingly.

However, the number of people on MN who truly believe that women who take maternity leave are in some way deliberately harming businesses has been an eye opener.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 06/05/2015 10:06

Wow. Amazed at the Grauniad - always thought they were the most feminist of the broadsheets. Clearly they don't care about that particular bit of their brand identity.

scallopsrgreat · 06/05/2015 10:09

"However, the number of people on MN who truly believe that women who take maternity leave are in some way deliberately harming businesses has been an eye opener." And the number of people who believe women are getting more than they are entitled to through maternity leave.

The country is going to the dogs I tell you! Those damn women having those damn babies. Why can't they just be more considerate for the feelings of men and the workplaces they have carefully set up. The workplace is the important thing in this world. Not bringing new life - that's just a sideline. It's a lifestyle choice I tell you! One that women choose all by themselves. Selfish! All of them!

MissM · 06/05/2015 10:11

I wonder what his response would have been if a guy had written in, stating that he was furious to have been asked if his partner intended having any children in the near future, or what arrangements he had made for childcare. My guess is that Jezza would have suddenly become very well acquainted with the equality act. Or alternatively would have responded with absolute incredulity.

I hope someone calls him out over it in next week's paper.

scallopsrgreat · 06/05/2015 10:16

Oh and the thing about her being angry - it was just to discredit her. She is standing up to the norms and male privilege. Women = angry = irrational, of course. It's also amazing how often a woman giving a clear and reasonable argument against sexism sounds 'angry'.

MissM · 06/05/2015 10:43

I just had a look at the column, and it says at the end 'Please note that he is unable to answer questions of a legal nature'. But surely this is of a legal nature?

The blog responses are brilliant though.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 06/05/2015 11:14

Agreed Scallops.

Men being angry - well, it's just natural for manly men to express their anger at things in a manly angry way.

Women being angry - well, that's just awful, how irrational and unwomanly of her, quick, burn the witch.

addstudentdinners2 · 06/05/2015 11:18

Women being angry - well, that's just awful, how irrational and unwomanly of her, quick, burn the witch.

This. I am sick and tired of being told as a woman I shouldn't feel angry. Anger is completely frowned upon in this society. Even on MN I have had frequent cries of 'calm down dear'. Fucking patronising and would not be said to a man.

INickedAName · 06/05/2015 13:19

I had been asked about my plans to have children when I was looking for nursery work, I was 20 and in my naïvety, thinking honesty was best, I had said "in the future I would like children yes" and then when I was asked about childcare plans for children I might have never have had and I stumbled over the answer, the interviews finished soon after.
I honestly thought it was some kind of trick question, as I was looking for nursery nurse vancies, I thought saying saying no I'm not sure if I want dc, would work against me.
It might just be coincidence but when i did lie, and say "I don't have any plans to have dc" I got the job. I worked up to management over the 8 years I was there and then when I got pregnant, I even apologised for being pregnant, boss drove me to hosp apps so I didn't miss work, I went above and beyond for them, they pulled all sorts of stunts to get me out or to just make my working life miserable, they tried to stop me returning after maternity leave but I fought it, I had written evidence of them saying what a perfect employee I was two days before I told them I was pg, then they said they wouldn't give me a reference for future jobs if I went down the legal route, so in the end I gave up, let them have their way and left.
That was over 10 years ago and it sounds like the same stuff is still happening. It's wrong.

Blu · 06/05/2015 14:55

MissM - I don't think they have a readers response the following week.

I guess someone should write to the Letters Page.

Are the Guardian even aware of the issues raised by this column? I just had a look at the Contact Us page and there is a comprehensive list of issues you can and cannot complain about....

OP posts:
JeanneDeMontbaston · 06/05/2015 14:59

Ah, but women don't have the right to be angry about job-related things.

You know, they're only doing it to earn pin money, and should know that the priority in this area goes to married men and poor unmarried spinsters, not married women whose husbands can provide for them.

MissM · 06/05/2015 15:37

The stupid thing, is that employers like this (and Jeremy) make assumptions about women who are also mothers. Such as: they will take time off when their kids are ill; they will leave work earlier; they will be less focussed on the job blah blah blah. But in my case (and of pretty much every working mother I know, whatever the age of their kids) it makes you MORE organised, MORE committed and LESS likely to take time off (or if you do, you make it up in your own time).

I was lucky enough to have my two when I worked for the civil service, so I had very generous maternity leave. It made me so much more likely to return - I felt so grateful and lucky to have had the time off with my babies that it gave me a new-found loyalty to my employer, whereas before I got pregnant I was starting to get fed up with the job and was thinking of looking elsewhere. Good conditions can make you more loyal to a company, not less!

Grrr. It's really got my back up this one (encouraged by you lot).

scallopsrgreat · 06/05/2015 16:43

"I just had a look at the Contact Us page and there is a comprehensive list of issues you can and cannot complain about...." So we can only complain about certain stuff Confused? How does that work then? How do they actually stop people complaining about the stuff on the "not allowed" list Grin?

Blu · 06/05/2015 16:51

As 2 working parents DP and I have taken 50 / 50 responsibility. Both worked one day a week form home / reduced our contracts to a 4 day week at different times to accommodate domestic work balance, we juggle the emergency sick days and appointments between us, being co-operative and flexible to enable us both to meet crucial deadlines etc - but ensuring that it pans out equally over the year.

All the 2-job families that I know do this. Jeremy B has no business assuming that the woman in the article, especially as she says she has worked since her children were small, has not done similarly and therefore has no right to an 'intense' response.

I think my DP would be pretty insulted, too, to see that men like him are routinely assumed not to exist, not to pull their weight as a parent, and not to be recognised as making one small difference in the perception of both men and women in the workplace.

OP posts:
meandjulio · 06/05/2015 20:17

Amen Blu.

Blistory · 06/05/2015 20:53

I ask at interview about caring responsibilities. I also ask men. It's not illegal. Asking only women is discriminatory. Treating women differently because of it is discriminatory.

I ask and point out that we offer a degree of flexibility. I ask because I'd rather someone was honest enough to tell me that a 9am start is a pain in the arse because the kids start school next year and they're worried about how the hell they'll deal with that and get to work on time. I'd rather put their mind at rest from the outset.

I do get arsey with any female staff who have partners who expect to shoulder the burden of kids being sick, elderly parents needing assistance etc etc and it's amazing how many women have never considered asking their partners to share this issue or how many men feel that their job is too important to even broach the subject with their employers.

I ask men at interview and when they reply that their wife's employer lets them take all the time off, I point out that they can have the time off and share the burden. It doesn't go down well but sure as eggs are eggs, within a couple of months, it starts to happen and they realise that they're not really so critical to the running of the Company that they can't attend the nativity play or arrange to let carers in.

I'll keep asking at interview because until men realise they DO have to think about this and take an equal role, it's not going to change.

Mashtag · 06/05/2015 21:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blistory · 06/05/2015 21:57

It's shit. It really is but men need to suck up the eye rolls from their employers and perceived lack of respect from their male colleagues and force through a change in attitude.

Yes it's a pain in the proverbial constantly having to arrange cover or juggle work rotas but employers need to accept that it's part and parcel of every day life like sickness and bereavement and injury. I don't refuse to hire someone who plays rugby despite the risk of them being off with injury. Maybe if I phrased it that way instead of talking about caring responsibilities, I'm make progress sooner.

YonicScrewdriver · 06/05/2015 22:06

Good idea Blistory, I'll keep that in mind. You could chuck in a skiing hobby too Grin

Wibblypiglikesbananas · 06/05/2015 22:38

DM loves to tell the tale of how in 1987 she was asked how she'd look after my younger siblings if they were ill when she applied for a full time teaching post at my school. She told the headteacher/interviewers it was none of their business and went on to get the job!