Why do I want a job?

[Jackieharris]

I'm getting all philosophical here. But instead of getting depressed about my unemployment I'm going to attempt to analyse why I feel like this from a feminist PoV. Does that make sense?

At the moment I don't really need the money. Our living conditions aren't ideal and certainly wasn't where I'd expected to be at this stage in my life but we're not having to make a chicken last more than one meal put it that way.

So if it's not the £££ then why is my desire for a career so strong? Why is it so important to me that I feel worthless without it? Were my expectations too high? Did I get swept away in the 80s/90s rhetoric that women can have it all? I grew up in these decades never for a second doubting that as an adult I'd spend my days working in a job I enjoyed and getting reasonably well paid (enough to buy a house/go abroad every year, not own a sports car!) for it.

Was I always just set up to fail?

From a feminist PoV I'm thinking about how differently I was socialised from my mothers (post war) generation. She was expected to be a carer and to have a part time bottom rung 'job' (as opposed to a 'career'). I expected and was expected by others (parents/peers/teachers) to have a life no different from the boys sitting next to me in class.

What went wrong? Is it a societal thing or have I just been unlucky in this economy? (Childcare costs aren't the issue)

Is the way women are socialised to feel about unemployment different from men? I personally feel like it's my duty to provide financially for my family. I feel like I've failed as a parent for not being able to fulfil this. In my darkest moments I've even considered leaving my family as I don't feel like I have anything to offer them.

I was never socialised to be a sahm. When I briefly tried it (mat leave) I became quite ill. I think if a man was in this situation people would be more understanding of his inability to 'relabel' himself from unemployed to sahp. But 'unemployed mother' almost sounds like an oxymoron. I suppose this is a feminist point about how women are either boxed into the opposing categories of sahm or wohm. What about women like me (I can't be the only one) who are neither?

Where are these feelings coming from and what can I do to overcome them and try to move on in a positive way?

Tia

First off, on a personal level, I am sorry you are going through this hard time.

On a feminist level, I think that the fact that women are socialised to be SAHM (as well as WOHM) usually means that women find it more easy to adapt to a SAHM role, if circumstances means that they can no longer WOH. Whereas unemployed fathers are more likely to feel that they have failed, as they have ONE role they are supposed to fulfill (= to be providers). So yay, women are "lucky", in that we have 2 possible roles that are more or less sanctioned by society (although women will be looked down upon, inevitably, whichever of these 2 roles we choose, since we're not fulfilling the other role).

You are struggling with this, because your experience has taught you that SAH is just not for you, personally. So in a sense, you are "failing" on both counts: unable to be a WOHM (because circumstances), and also unable to be a SAHM (because that's just not you).

No wonder you feel low.

You can't help the economy, you can't help who you are, and you certainly can't help the messages society gives us. Just realise that none of it is your fault.

As a man (I do love starting a post with that), I can tell you that this is how unemployment affects the vast majority of men. The feeling of helplessness, failure, loss of self-respect, loss of your perceived place in society. So much of our worth is tied up in providing, in the financial sense. It can lead so many to depression, withdrawal, even suicide. It is tragic, in the true sense of the word.

I suppose it means that feminism is working. You are judging yourself, and imagine that others are judging you, in the same terms that they would a man. Great, isn't it?

Yeah, thanks for that, it does pretty much sum it up!

I'm trying to think if there is any feminist theory on female unemployment?

It is a kind of invisible issue isn't it?

I think I'll go and read the feminine mystique. Not read it since I was 19. Wonder what I'll think of it now?

You sound a bit like me

I was very ill when I was on mat leave / part time from home / primary role was child care.

There is a socialisation element but I suspect also a personality element. My personality is singularly ill suited to SAHP and while I can do it, and have, it was at great personal cost. This is the case for lots of SAHM we know though, and has been famously for ages. The tropes around bored housewives, women drinking too much / popping valium are there for a reason.

Similarly lots of men have personality traits that equip them well to be SAHP, but due to socialisation and traditional roles etc they are out there slogging their guts out in jobs they hate and similarly just "getting on with it" and with similar problems in terms of mental health, substance abuse and so on.

Basically a lot of people are pretty unhappy in the roles they are prescribed, really, and if gender roles were relaxed and people had more freedom then it would improve things I think (although obviously it will never be rosy for everyone, children will always need looking after and resources to do that need to come in one way or another).

Anyway. I work FT and couldn't be happier. I am good at office type work, it makes me feel fulfilled and happy. I enjoy earning money, as well. I get a sense of achievement, enjoy the teamworking aspects and so forth. It's good. Similarly people like my DH get a real sense of satisfaction from baking a loaf or sitting snuggled with the children reading with them and so forth. For obvious reasons, we are perpetually looking for a part-time job for him

Anyway. That's my two-pennorth.

I do hope you find a job soon, which provides opportunity to satisfy your career / work ambitions, and I would say that there is nothing whatsoever wrong in feeling that way

Whirlpool- yes I don't think my situation or feelings are that uncommon.

There have been a couple of threads on mn over the last couple of weeks where women are saying how unhappy they are in their assigned sahm role.

I suppose it's about choice and lack of choice as well? I'm in the feminist camp of believing that we have very little free choice and that our choices are shaped by society/patriarchy.

I think there's an assumption that women out of work or sahms are there through free choice. I think that's at the route of a lot of the sahm vs wohm debates we get on here and irl. Maybe we aren't really arguing about each role but who has the most choice?

I think the issue of men not being socialised for a potential sahp role is also a feminist issue deserving of more attention. If we look at our parenting how well are we preparing our sons to potentially being sahps? If I look at my ds he just isn't nurturing at all. Is that personality or is it socialisation? (I gave him cooking/cleaning/doll toys as a preschooler).

Yes, baking and book reading were never aspects of parenting I took to. I bought my dcs the equipment/ hundreds of books but they just sit there. Do men feel guilty about this kind of thing? I think not.

The sahm/ wohm thing on mumsnet is the mumsnet bubble effect and connected to economics I think. There are a lot of people on here who are very well-off and who persistently talk of sahm as a choice. Occasionally someone talks about how lucky they are to be able to live on one wage and make that choice.

I and people I know in rl on the other hand have/ had no choice because we earn less and cannot / could not actually afford to work - it would pay less than childcare. Even when you can afford it, when they start school, there are issues regarding local availability of childcare around schooltimes... Some of the first group then spark off about dh's being able to work part-time, in my neck of the woods that isn't often an option for men and anyway would decrease the family's earning power on the whole.

so yes definitely this is all about who has what choices available.

The question of how men are socialised is most definitely a feminist issue - have a look at the thread on here about raising boys.

Yeah, I'm on that thread too. Might raise this issue there!

The thing is I don't fit into either sahm category- just because we can afford it (atm) doesn't mean I've chosen it. Dps work Is flexible and he would even sahp himself if I could only get a job! Dcs are older, we have lots of GP help so childcare isn't keeping me a sahm either! I'm just unemployed. (But not counted in the governments stats)

Yes the not counted in the govt stats thing is interesting isn't it.

Have you looked at recruitment agencies specifically for women in your position or who are looking for part-time professional roles? Like timewise or capability jane?

Jackie - I felt exactly as you do (albeit in different circs). Getting on for 20 years ago, I was made redundant. It had been on the cards for a while - so I had a PhD place lined up, had a lodger to help cover the mortgage, NI stamps up to date so could have just collected the dole for my 8 weeks between redundancy and PhD. But psychologically I just couldn't cope - I ended up trailing round every temping agency in the city till I found a job for those 8 weeks.

In my case, it was to do with upbringing, some sort of weird protestant work ethic thing. But I totally get not feeling right without a job.

I also get the not wanting to be a SAHM thing. I know some wonderful intelligent, fascinating women who find it very fulfilling. But it's not me (I just about went nuts on maternity leave). There is nothing wrong with not liking a whole day of kids' swing parks and finger painting.

Good luck with the job hunt.

"The feeling of helplessness, failure, loss of self-respect, loss of your perceived place in society." Women have always felt like this. There is a reason gin is called 'Mother's ruin'.

Paid job = status. That is what it boils down to. You want your status back and that is completely understandable. And I completely agree - you are invisible because of it. I had never thought of it like that. You will be labelled a mother or SAHM. A man in that position would be labelled what he is - unemployed.

Not sure about literature on female unemployment. The Fawcett Society do a lot on how unemployment disproportionally affects women. They may have something. The only other book I think of is one by Marilyn Waring: If Women Counted or its sometimes called Counting for Nothing.

And the socialisation about nurturing is a big thing. There's a thread in AIBU at the moment (I think you are on it) which I've had to hide as I think some of the posts are vile to the OP who is clearly struggling (and possibly in an abusive relationship), wants to leave the relationship and not be primary carer for her children.

Oh god, that thread is horrible, isn't it? I've just tried to point out that all the people involved in the pile on saying "you don't sound sufficiently upset about this, OP" are being sexist - because it is sexist to assume that women must show their emotions overtly to complete strangers, and that they are therefore unnatural and cold and unwomanly if they don't.

Yes, that thread is so sexist!

I'll look up that book, thanks. I've heard of Marilyn wearing but have never read her.

I've also been thinking of how it would be different if I was a single mum. Then I'd be classed not only as unemployed but as a 'scrounger' and a 'drain on society'. That's so daft! I get the same in tax credits now because do is a low paid worker as I would on my own so it makes no material difference but the way society would perceive me would be monumentally different!

I do often find that the sahm vs whom debate assumes that there is a dp. It's such a different scenario for single mums.

I think what I want/need is to be able to change my thinking on the situation (kind of like cbt?) from a feminist PoV so I can accept my experience without hating myself/becoming depressed.

Lurcio- re that 'Protestant work ethic' thing, I saw a TV history programme about that a while back. I'd never really thought of it as a UK cultural thing before. Certainly my parents have a very moralistic view of paid employment. They see it as a civic duty (like voting?) and think it's immoral not to work. We do have a benefits bashing culture atm so maybe I'm picking up on that?

There must be some feminist critique of this?

Yy to all the assumptions (and I know I've been guilty of that in the past) about being in a relationship and how you are perceived as an unemployed single mum. Also how much more difficult it would be for you to find a job as a single mum. Totally overlooked.

I think woman are socialised to have a work ethic too. Men are allowed their downtime. After all they bring home the bucks. There is evidence they are working. Women working at home get to do that 24hrs per day. But it doesn't directly affect the GDP (even though it does of course) so it becomes invisible. How many housework threads are there with men doing the bare minimum or less and a chorus of people saying well he does the washing up, he deserves his down time - Really? Big fucking deal. And when does the woman get her downtime? Women have to be productive even when they are on their downtime (where do you think sewing/crafts being associated with women comes from?).

Yes, I get that. My DP does a lot of housework 'for a man'. But I know women who work ft who do more...