Feminism & Raising Boys

[AntiquityIsDotDotDot]

I see this pop up lots & it's also something that concerns me as I have two sons. I have certainly seen plenty of comments along the lines of feminism isn't about men when this issue comes up. But the fact is boys are children, not men, and we are raising them. Yes, a lot of unpaid parenting work goes into this & that is, in the end, working for men. But they are children, children disproportionately targeted by adult men for ridicule & corporal punish. Children also mocked by other women as well as men for perceived feminine traits.

One of my boys (and perhaps both) has autism. He will be more vulnerable to male violence as he grows up. Both will be confronted with the objectification of women & through no doubt inevitable exposure to porn be at least taught the hurt, shame & degradation of women should be what they find pleasurable.

How is parenting boy CHILDREN not a feminist issue?

Recently ds1 who is 11 said we should've brought him up to be tougher so he could handle ridicule at school from the PE coaches. But he at least knows they are wrong & so far has not internalised the comments. His teacher makes sexist comments too, only one so far directed at boys but a number at girls. In one way I'm glad he can see it, not only for himself but so he doesn't take the messages about girls as facts. But I know he finds it hard to be more aware than the adults around him and certainly doesn't feel like he can bring it up to adults whereas he's confronted racism.

As for video games. Dh works for a video game company. We think about the games he has access to. But his closest friends were playing GTA when they were years 4 & 2 (brothers). Today he told me his friend now year 5 was playing Hitman when he was round yesterday. We did go through a period of banning ds from going in their house, but obviously he went in anyway! We've watched feminist video game critique together & do discuss violence as entertainment and the effects that might have on children, also talk about sexist marketing, men & war, making money off children etc. I also point out sexist in other kinds of media & he notices it too, towards both sexes. I don't know if it's enough once he hits his teens but I hope so.

We do also discuss racism and racism & sexism and how things are on a structural level despite how this may not be the case on a personal level. Obviously it helps that he's really into analysing the world & always has been!

I do the same with consent as Bertie. I also read an interesting article recently, don't know whether I found it here or on twitter about homophobia and male touch which was interesting. Dh read it and he's been making sure he hugs ds1 more etc because it naturally tailed off as ds got bigger. I'll have to find it up. The gist was that homophobia this last century meant men touch each other less and sometimes not at all & so male touch becomes about sex & no doubt feeds into itself.

On phone still so apologies for any incoherence & the inability to respond conversational to points.

Also agree about fighting the patriarchy rather than men but I do know that word puts people off.

Here we are Touch Isolation

Hope that works!

Touch isolation, really useful way of thinking about it.

I think mc men do divert attention from their actions, charm is a mc weapon, right? I think it would be easier to be a mc man than a wc one, so to me it is a pretty nasty version of masculinity they are handed. Toxic for the men themselves, toxic for the women who are in relationships (of all kinds) with them

Sorry it's hard for me to get time to articulate my thoughts.

An example - Page 3. Defended as a symbol of "working class" male identity but printed, promoted and produced by the very privileged London media elite that they accuse their opponents of representing. Same with lads mags and gangster cinema - marketed to plebs but produced by posh boys who hang around with the Camerons.

Oh, great examples, I hadn't thought about those. What about football or boxing? How many men making money out of the labour of wc men? The individuals then bought off so they don't worry their pretty heads about the inequalities their paymasters perpetuate.

Absolutely. It's the old cliche about boxing clubs being the way "to keep the lads off the street" as if that's all WC men can expect.

I took da out of a nursery in a deprived area because I wasn't happy with the 'if he hits you, you hit him back harder' attitude.

I've moved hell & high water to get ds into a good school in a mc area. The standards of acceptable 'masculinity' are markedly different in the 2 communities.

I know lots of committed feminists who are mums of sons. It is a difficult bind.

I tried to do gender neutral parenting as much as possible when he was younger but as peer pressure took hold he changed. He now has some pretty sexist attitudes (eg thinks childcare is women's work/they should sahm or work pt) which pains me.

ds went to infant school in year 1, he was home educated before and he immediately saw the divide between boys and girls, that boys were naughtier and stupider. Before moving him to the school he's at he was involved in fighting and got detentions in year 4! The current school is amazing and has high academic expectations for all children rather than the current attitude which seems to be working class = less intelligent. This means he's been able to resist the influences much more and also excel (eg level 6 sats - though I realise that's only average for mumsnet ). The playground always has the opportunity for structured play with play leaders as well which heads off the issues he had at the other school. It also specifically has days for girls on the football pitch as well as younger years so it's not hogged by boys, especially older boys. Though as I've said above, there can be individual sexist language by teachers.

Jackie My ds got some of those attitudes too. To try to counter it (and who knows how successfully, now as well as in the future) I've talked about family (however it may look) as a unit (rather than the individualistic capitalist view of family) and division of labour and actually why it is that I've ended up as the main carer which has a lot to do with sexism as well as less than ideal life choices. Dh is an involved parent and quite frankly at this stage we'd love to swap around main earner v. sahp (ds2 has autism and full hours childcare would be harmful) but I cannot make the money he does with my lack of experience. I think it's also helpful to see that life doesn't necessarily pan out the way you expect or would like!

I do specifically seek out media which is more positive eg. buying the new Ms Marvel who is a Muslim teenager for those who don't know, or getting Legend of Korra which has varied non-white female characters with agency. But it's going to get harder as he gets older.

I guess I do actually talk about capitalism a lot with regards to sexism. Eg. separate colours for boys and girls so people end up not passing down toys or clothing and having to buy more. And how sexist assumptions behind boys & girls toys feed into the idea that this is somehow naturally what boys and girls are like.

Saying all this. Ds was quite happy to critique how society is sexist towards girls and we've watched a lot of the feminist frequency videos and yet he couldn't handle the one and gave up watching it because I don't think he liked to believe he was also influenced by gender expectations and stereotypes, that expectations can be specific to era and that the same company can change it's target and influence people.

So obviously, talking about sexism towards girls and women is a step removed from him, an academic point, but to see that he is also on the receiving end... I think that's the big challenge. No-one likes to think they've been manipulated, it's probably one of the great stumbling blocks towards the acceptance of feminism. In a society where we're told everything is down to personal choice, despite vast amounts of money ploughed into advertising, marketing etc. then failure to understand something, see something, is personal failure and who wants to be a failure.

Oh gosh!! I don't mean to literally say the boys were naughtier and stupider! I meant he said that from his perspective and in the end I got him to watch the girls and he just realised the girls didn't get caught being naughty as much and that classroom compliance was seen as a marker of intelligence.

I'm glad you say Legend of Korra is a good influence. DH is really into anime stuff and has brought that one in for DS to watch and also Naruto. I saw a bit of Naruto where they did some "sexy jutsu" which is basically conjuring an image of an underwear-clad woman gyrating - really NOT appropriate for a 6 year old. I was unhappy about that but it turned out DS had already seen quite a bit of it, and DH reckons it's treated as a bit of a joke, like it's a stupid thing to be interested in, so I let it go. Then DH and I had an argument because I said it was also sexist that Naruto was upset because the girl he fancied went out with somebody else, and he accused me of seeing sexism in everything (well.... yeah. Duh.)

But honestly, I see incredibly low expectations for working class boys and it's awful. It was normal to hear about how 'men are useless' and 'boys are naughty' in the playground, with younger children around who must have been soaking these things up. In year 1 ds ended up cowering behind a toilet door as a year 2 boy repeatedly smacked the door into him. There's something messed up that if by 6/7 years old a child is doing that to someone else.

But then I see it on the street, the two boys with "scary" dads were verbally and physically hideous to younger kids. Though one got better when his dad left. I can only imagine what went on in the houses. And by scary I guess I mean those men who seem to have barely controlled anger about them. I had a scary dad myself who beat my brother but not us so I'm a bit sensitive to them.

Bertie Has he seen Avatar The Last Airbender? That's the series before Korra and more suited to a 6 year old. There is still some relationship stuff in Korra, but it's not overwhelming and at the very end of the series Korra and another female character are in love.

YY I totally agree with you. Although of course abusive fathers can also exist in middle class households. I think it's not necessarily abuse as such but the culture is different. It's acceptable in many WC circles to smack children in a way that it is not in MC circles. It's also more the done thing not to question how your male partner disciplines the children whereas in MC households it's a big thing - you see it on MN. A parent really upset because their frazzled DH has lost it and smacked, or given a punishment they don't agree with. The threads always go the same way, like it's heinous. Okay, sometimes there is a thread of abusive behaviour behind it, but sometimes it's just human failure. But there is definitely an expectation that you will have a "parenting style", and discuss it with your partner, that you have to be on the same page, that you each (but somewhat more the mother) have a say over how the other is dealing with things. I don't think this is as much the case in WC households. Parents worry less about parenting styles and tend to do what their parents did.

I don't think that smacking necessarily causes violence but when it's used inappropriately it definitely contributes to a sense of chaos and unpredictability and feeds that idea that it's a normal thing to do to intimidate somebody physically when you want to show you're stronger than them.

I think he did watch Avatar first, yes. I don't mind relationship stuff coming up that much, he's not really interested in it, but it's the unhealthy relationship stuff I don't like (IMO jealousy and possessiveness are not values I want to be promoting as normal.)

I find this fascinating. I'm raising male teens. My XH, their father, was a sexist twat (amongst many other things). When I left my eldest, then 10/11 years old, would use the word 'cunt' when he could, he'd heard his dad using it in relation to me - I sat him down and explained its usage, history and the derogatory way it was used against me. Not nice to have to do. I worked all hours doing whatever to feed them. They appreciate what I did and how men and women both work to the same ends. They had no male role model for sporty stuff but I'd sit and shoot zombies (as is my female right!) on the psx with them.

My DP is their male role model now, very much a man's man but with no sporting interest. He grew up with a strong mother and sister and respects women. He, and now the DCs, think nothing of housework, 'traditional' female jobs, and just get on with it without being asked or expecting a round of applause.

The porn issue did come up for one DC, DP hates porn due to his past. After going pretty mental and demanding respect for women I sat DS down and explained how that is someone's sister, mother, daughter and how they probably didn't choose to have that career choice, etc...!

They are or will be men, they will never be women and there is a difference. I'm just trying to help them be well rounded individuals who don't judge people on whether they have a vagina or not.

The male role model thing is one of the issues isn't it. For boys to grow up well the men around need not be toxic, but it should not then be women's work to educate men. I used to help dh with his relationship with ds1 but in the end I've just said it's up to him if he wants an adult relationship with him like he has with his own dad and if he doesn't (which he doesn't) then he needs to sort that out himself. He's been good since then. He doesn't have the same issues with ds2 and is great with him, I think that's partly through all the things he's learned with ds1 (there's a 7 year age difference).

I often wonder about the mil/dil threads and that dils steal sons away from mothers and they aren't so much your family anymore but belong to the dil's family. Obviously there are exceptions to that etc. etc. But it makes me think why those sons also don't want to visit their fathers? Why is it about visiting mothers or not? I suspect in those cases where heterosexual parents are still together fathers have been absent from family life or they just haven't bothered maintaining a relationship through the tough teenage years? I don't know. Again, that's just a tangent. The main thing is countering the narrative that sons cannot be close to their mums without it be seen as "feminising" or just dysfunctional.

I'm always afraid of generalising when talking about middle class v. working class experiences because often the default assumption is that wc should just be more like mc, that it's a natural "progression". But I reject that notion myself. I don't reject that there are wc problems, there are, but there are also middle class problems too. Some are unique to themselves, some are just different expressions of the same issue beneath.

Yesterday at DS's rugby, (U11) I heard comments about "pack of girl guides", "looked like they should have been wearing tutus" and "tarts", from both men and women. (The statements were all referring to DS's team, by parents of the boys in the team. We are a fairly MC lot, I would say.)

They were also sneered at for petting the various dogs that walked past. (Including 3 pugs and a Labrador puppy. Aaaaw!)

I think it is so important to encourage boys to value so-called feminine attributes and qualities, and to value girls, rather than seeing the "feminine" as less worthy.

It's just as important as encouraging girls to be assertive, and to see STEM subjects as something they can do (etc.).

Antiquity, DP and his family are very WC and he has an amazing relationship with his mum. My own (mc) DM isn't close to her DSs (my DBs) and told me once that I wasn't pretty enough to marry well .

I assume that you consider mc parents to be more 'equal' but in my experience it isn't so. I could be wrong though, coffee hasn't kicked in!

Oh & I apologise for saying "non-white" up thread. While aware of a lot of racism as a white person I have quite a way to go still.

I don't expect the mc to be more equal but I think their practices of policing gender while as toxic might not be as brutal. I mean, sneering at petting labradors is pretty dismal and probably shaming and horrible for the boys. But it isn't the same as being threatened with a good hiding for doing it. I know that not all wc parents use physical punishments and that some mc parents would use it. But 'smacking' etc is more acceptable in wc culture, ime, and not acceptable in mc culture.

Yes, what are the experiences of WoC bringing up boys? I wonder how parenting practices shape masculinities in different communities? I do think that all of those communities are working inside a national discourse which seems completely obsessed with sex as a way of realising masculinity - like the more sex you have, the more of a man you are, the more women you can 'persuade' to have sex with you, the more of a man you are, that your job as a man in a relationship is to persuade the woman to have sex, and also that women that want to have sex are somehow not worth having sex with? How does that national context affect different communities?

I remember reading how very important it is that we openly discuss issues of race with our children, I'm not sure that I do do that enough with my own DC. I do try to acknowledge differences (because I read something that made the point that if you pretend you don't see ethnic differences then DC come to their own conclusions and they aren't usually that they don't see colour). But I know that when we talk about my DCs friends from different ethnic groups when we're out and about, I feel toe curlingly embarrassed about being heard even acknowledging in any way that the friends are from different ethnic groups. I keep thinking that we will need to start to talk more explicitly about the ways that my DC will have privilege next to their em friends and can only assume that that will be really distressing for them to hear and recognise. But I find it really easy to talk about sexism! Ugh, I really am not enjoying this moment of realisation....

Sanity Completely agree about so called feminine attributes. Let's face it, a lot of effort goes into getting those things out of boys so arguing that they are inherent is just a load of rubbish. Just allowing the default human child would be a vast improvement.

Hell I don't find mc parents more equal, I don't have vast experience but in general I've found mc class fathers to be less involved than wc fathers. But that's just my anecdotal evidence from people the same age as me and the few people I know from back home and real evidence of nothing!

OutsSelf I read the same thing, that "not noticing" race is racist in itself and discounts the lives of PoC. So I bring it up overtly with ds but obviously I can be a bit shit myself. I remember back when Diane Abbott put her son in private school and there was a huge furor and I remember thinking if she had certain values she should stick to them etc. etc. But that's back when I believed life was a level playing field and did not understand the different pressures facing boys of their background.

It's also a bit of a tightrope with ds because he can get feelings of superiority about having knowledge others don't so I have to tell him we learn about these things so we can be less rubbish to others not to inflate our own egos.

I have spoken about white privilege to ds, as well as male privilege, and that it's structural sexism and racism, but also emphasised that it doesn't negate his own bad experiences etc He took it all quite well. And of course PoC in a white society do not actually have the privilege of not being confronted by racism from an early age so telling him he benefits from it is nowhere near as bad as small children being confronted with it towards themselves or towards their parents.

YY to Bertiebott post at 14:25

I have 3 boys and a girl (all 8 and under), I try really hard to challenge gender stereotypes with them and talk openly about the fact they are social constructions. Ime this is an uphill struggle til about 6 when they lose the dogma over what boys or girls can be/do!!

Consent is talked about daily, ie "your brother/sister is showing you they don't like that so you stop immediately don't you... "

I try to alternate he/she as examples of things eg sing old macdonald with the farmer as a she etc

"telling him he benefits is nowhere near as bad as small children being confronted with it towards themselves or their parents" ouch, yes, that is true, I was literally saying it's not nice for my poor little white family to realise they are privileged, wasn't I?

What I thought I was talking about was preserving innocence - like, when is it age appropriate to have discussions about sexism, about racism, about inequality? My little boy is 4, we don't watch a lot of tv or anything and he is particularly sensitive to scary stuff so he hasn't seen anything with guns or war in... My brother thinks we mollycoddle him, or wrap him in cotton wool (wc masculinity in action, right) but I think I am preserving his childhood, I want him to have as much of a childhood as possible. So I've said stuff to him like, we don't decide things about people according to their (age/ height/ sex/ ability to do this or that) but I've never sort of said, the world is an unequal place... when does preserving childhood become silencing inequality?