Can we talk about violence and culture?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

I've just been reading a conversation where someone used the term 'symbolic violence', and it's got me thinking about the cultural roles violence plays, and why it plays those roles. This isn't a terribly groundbreaking post, but I wondered what you reckoned to the subject.

I keep noticing that, when we talk about certain kinds of violence on here, they're valorized, almost celebrated, when they have to do with Things Men Did Far Back In History: so, people will say that men evolved to be testosterone-fuelled fighters because historically we 'needed' war. And, in our culture, we respond to certain kinds of violence (world war I, for example) as needing a huge amount of ceremony and ritual, which is intended to celebrate the sacrifices of men in a violent context. And in my teaching, I have to teach my students a paper on Greek tragedy, where they read all about how literature turns violence into an art form, and this is somehow culturally hugely important.

All of these are slightly different things - evopsych about war, and ceremonies about it, and literary depictions of violence - but they all seem to me to be seen as 'serious' ways of relating to violence, serious attempts to historicize it or memorialize it. Right?

There is nothing I can think of that treats violence against women like this, at all. It's almost entirely invisible. There are things like Karen Ingala Smith's 'Counting Dead Women' project, but nothing with the huge scale and cultural impact.

Am I wrong about this? I think we are being encouraged to use memory and emotion differently (less!) when we relate to violence and women, aren't we?

Can we pull The Handmaid's Tale in here? Offred's view of the violence against dissidents?

I've not read that in so long ... I can't remember. Will dig it out.

buffy - ooh, yes. Damn, I wish I could write.

Too thoughtful for me, but if it helps Buffy is reminding me of the Dresden fire bombings.

OP, your OP wasn't badly written at all!

You said "I was really trying to figure out why male violence is so much celebrated"

I feel like I've been trying to figure that out ever since I was old enough to have a thought in my head!!

There is something about having a slightly older brother that makes you aware very early on of just how much male culture is celebrated. I came to the conclusion a long while ago that what we live in is not so much a patriarchy but a "fratriarchy".

We celebrate all forms of male bonding: sport, war, politics and see the rivalry between men as almost noble whilst we see women together as a recipe for a bitch fest even though when men disagree it is far more fatal.

That is why female rape victims of male soldiers are glossed over in history. The fraternal nature of males uniting to fight means that war is glorified but the ugly presence of women raped by the winning side challenges that glorification and presents the possibility that these men weren't heroes.

Most men who die in war are victims just as the women are. But they are heroized in a way women are not. One man was good enough to explain to me that the rightful for men having the vote in the past (and not women) was that being a man meant you were prepared to give your life up for your country. What about women I asked? The prospect of dying in childbirth was one that faced all women in those days. He laughed. How can you compare childbirth to war?

There is your answer. What goes on between men has been traditionally valued. What women do has been devalued but enjoys a pat on the back every now and again when it looks like women are getting antsy. Angel of the House is a case in point.

"Bad men triumph when good men fail to act" is an interesting saying because it shows that we often only know who the good men are in times of conflict.

In order for men to be seen as heroes one needs conflict.

Exactly Buffy. We are supposed to be grateful because we need men to protect us from ....other men.

"What goes on between men has been traditionally valued. What women do has been devalued but enjoys a pat on the back"

Definitely agree with this. It isn't so much what women do that is devalued as the fact that women do it though. As soon as something can be viewed as women's work, it is dismissed. For as long as and to the extent that it is in the male domain, it is valuable. Think of the difference in the way female / male competitive sport is viewed.

Professor Carol Black was making this point over a decade ago about the status of doctors declining as more women enter the profession.

/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3528786.stm

She got a lot of flak for it I believe as people were missing her point..

Within my own family, the narrative I have been given of war is that a situation of incredible brutality (including rape) was happening around me, and this is what I did to behave ethically in that situation and do the right thing. Before this thread, I had never thought about the conflict between that and the official heroes line.

The image of female violence I most think of is Uma Thurman in Kill Bill. Where when it is all over she leaves her daughter watching tv, and goes in the bathroom and sobs.

Hmmm grimble wonder if that's why teachers cop so much crap and librarianship is all but dead...

I thought of Kill Bill too. Tarantino seems to have no problem portraying women as psychos, or cold-hearted assassins. And I criticised Hollywood blockbusters before, but then I remembered Saving Private Ryan. That was a very human portrayal of soldiers in battle. They argued about sacrificing their friends to save one man, Hanks' character's nerves were shot and he broke down in tears at the end - before being killed. It isn't a typical portrayal though.

YY, can believe it is partly to do with that effect CB describes.

almond - that is fascinating and very sad.

I've never seen Kill Bill - I should.

Recently I was reading about how Demi Moore was portrayed in G.I. Jane, in ways that managed to keep suggesting 'ooh, but she's still feminine!' even while she was being violent. Though, also noticed googling to try to find the piece, that apparently her career took a bit of a nosedive after that film, which is telling.

There is a monument to the women of World War 2 in Whitehall. An easy walk from Edith Cavell, but along the way you have to pass by a fair number of violent blokes up on pedestals. One isn't likely to be intimidated by the Camel Corps , though.

When I was in vietnam I came across the statue of Me Suot Anh (look for images on google) for her valiantly ferrying troops during the vietnam war (from what the engineer with me said). Cant find anything in English on her

The valorisation continues with gangsta rap with men espousing how many times they dodged death, partners they have slept with, taken from others, imagine flipping that on it head and if you had a female rapper doing the same.

What would be really quite interesting (and perhaps it has been done? I don't know) would be to go around and write the story of various commemorative statues as if the violence hadn't been perpetuated as part of this glorious, necessary narrative but by some 'others'. What would the story read like if it was framed as terrorism or a war crime or similar? Would be enormously unpopular, obviously - which is revealing in itself - and would not be kind to do with more recent conflicts where veterans or their relatives could still be alive.

Somewhat off topic, but it's theorised that a lot of science fiction writing is created by a subconscious attempt to rationalise the invasion of other countries in a type of colonial guilt.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest

HG Wells 'War of the Worlds' was a deliberate attempt to provide Britons of the Imperial Age with the perspective of an indigenous people invaded by the technologically superior colonial powers.

I think it was significant. In WWI, Pankhurst and her daughter disagreed about whether women should support the war effort, or not.

I have often heard people being shocked there would even be a debate, as if it's totally obvious that patriotism ought to come first.

tei - thank you, I will look for that.

breaking - YY, good point, similar cultures exist even in contexts that aren't 'war' as such.

oneflew - oh, that's disturbing! Can believe if of some Sci Fi, though, very easily.

That's interesting Mephistopheles particularly that it was done intentionally.

One of the things I find interesting about the colonial trope in sci fi is that novels always end with humans beating the more technologically advanced invaders, usually by outwitting them or seeing through their "we come in peace" guise. It's as if it's a subconscious justification of "if they'd only been smart enough / cunning enough / disbelieving of our small pox infected blankets then indigenous populations would have survived so they've only got themselves to blame"

Also on the theme of the celebration of hero violence in Hollywood, I have always found it very disturbing that the actual depiction of such violence is presented as entertaining. For some reason I react very extremely to such depictions - I literally cannot watch these things on screen, I flinch/jump etc and have to cover my eyes. However, my reaction is often considered by others to be anything from hilarious to puzzling to immature and always considered "womanish." My negative reaction to violence is considered as something unusual, worthy of comment and certainly not normal.

I suppose what I am tring to sa is that not only is male violence justified and celebrated by cuture but that those whose reactions who do not support that celebration (often women, in my experience) are thought of as "lesser."

I have some weird filter between Hollywood and reality. I don't like Youtube/liveleak videos of real events - injuries, accidents etc because I know someone has done themselves damage. Similarly, I can't watch those hospital programmes - 24 Hours in A&E etc. - when they cut people up. My wife and daughter think my reaction is hilarious. Bruce Willis machine-gunning 27 bit-part actors though? Meh. So I don't think your reaction is considered 'womanly', rosa. Do you find a difference between real-life and Hollywood depictions?