Frozen

[suddenlycupishalffull]

This has probably been raised many times before....I've resisted Frozen for as long as I could but as DD (4) was coming home from nursery singing Let It Go, has been to numerous Frozen parties being the inky 1 not in an Elsa dress & was playing games pretending to freeze & kill people (I've seen her play along with her little friends at drop off despite her having no idea about the film!) so I figured it was time for her to actually watch it. Predictably, she loves it & I'm trying to get my worrying about this in some sort of perspective! She plays at being Elsa, all moody & 'don't touch me!' despite me reminding her that Elsa just needs to learn to control her powers, that her powers are used for good etc. But the fact remains that as a feminist I bloody hate Disney & I wish every girl in her class wasn't obsessed with this film! They seem so young :( And as a mother with my own issues stemming from an eating disorder & repressing negative emotions, I hate seeing her playing out these drama queen sentiments she's picking up from the a Elsa character, though I know logically she's just exploring, it still makes me really uncomfortable & I start to panic (I recognise this is not necessarily a rational response). The one consolation I'm finding is that Moms with slightly older girls have said that they soon get over this phase with their self-esteem in tact & move into something else (1D?!!) so perhaps Disney isn't as all powerful as I fear. I'm also aware if I completely ban something I probably just make it more alluring, so I'm trying to find a balance. But I foresee a whole world of Disney princess ahead of us - how do I navigate her through this? I don't want her to aspire to be a bloody princess!

Have you tried studio Ghibili films?

Now I admit I haven't given this much thought (only have a DS) but of all the Disney princess films I mind frozen the least because the girls save themselves and the too good to be true / love at first sight prince turns out to be an arsehole.

This thread may help

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2329517-daughter-problems

I wouldn't worry, I think it's just a phase. My girls loved disney princesses and dressing up, and they loved Barbie dolls (and I really hate Barbie!).

They're now teenagers and I'm very proud of them, they both work hard at school, and are ambitious. They certainly don't aspire to be princesses! I've always told them that they are just as capable as boys, and encouraged them to try new things. I've also told them that women and men are equal, and that when they grow up it's not their place to cook and to clean for a man, but to split housework with their partner.

I totally understand your fear OP. I have DDs aged 5 and 3. Older dd started school this year and all the girls are obsessed with Frozen. Having tried to avoid all Disney up until now I have reluctantly been sucked in. it's not all bad though, dd has started enjoying singing and dressing up/role play games since Frozen mania, hated all that stuff previously. We often talk about positive/negative behaviours traits the charectures have in a way we can't with say cbeebies programmes because they have a bit more depth. DD is also into loads of other non Disney princess stuff so I believe she is afairly balanced 5 yo. I think it's up to you to make it something other than aspiring to be a moody princess.

And it means that girls are wearing blue now.

Would also be good if something came along that made it ok for boys to wear or like pink

While there are still problems with the film it is an improvement on the general fodder Disney produce, and it passes the Bechdel test.

Orange rather than pink, fay, but had a prime bbc slot at Xmas and written by a very famous man:

i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/04/23BF236E00000578-0-image-a-21_1417717283620.jpg

Does it? Where 2 women, who are main characters, have a conversation about something other than a man? Yes although there's much less discussion about it, the pressure on boys in terms of 'acceptable' mascunlity is just as restrictive, if not more so, than the Disney princess industry. For boys there are very rigid role models about what is & isn't acceptable. Though I was really heartened to see at our local primary boys wearing dresses over football gear recently for World Boy Day, that's gotta be a good thing. There was also a Mockingjay, good to see a heroine who isn't frail & does the rescuing for a change :)

The writers of the Maleficient movie have clearly been watching Frozen. There is a twist at the end (which tbh was really predictable) where the "true loves kiss" comes not from the handsome prince but from another female. I can see this becoming the new cliche and more classics being released where the true love or true loves kiss doesn't involve men.

Also interesting to note in Maleficient the handsome prince doesn't even go to rescue sleeping beauty on his own accord, he is basically knocked out with magic, kidnapped and then basically ordered to kiss her. And when his kiss doesn't work he is quickly ushered out like an unwanted fly.

*more classics being re-released I meant

I totally understand your fear - I have a 4YO DD who absolutely adores the film, and especially Queen Elsa. I have massive reservations about the whole Disney princess phenomena, which I wasn't exposed to as a child - yes, I watched Mickey Mouse, and other Disney movies (Bambi, Dumbo, etc), but they are somewhat more gender neutral (much less pink!), than the princess slant that has snowballed in the last generation.

However, I'm sort of going with the flow, making it up as I go along, and hoping for the best.

Society has such a huge influence on how we develop, probably far more so than pure parental influence, but at the same time, parental influence does go a long way.

I am raising my DS and DD to think, and to question, and not just to accept. I hope as they get older and can develop this faculty, it'll set them in good stead.

I have faith that they will figure things out for themselves. I did.

Take positive messages from it, OP:

Elsa is special because of things only she can do. She builds herself the ice castle so that she can be herself and protect herself from outside judgement.

And someone who seems a perfect prince on first meeting could turn out to be dangerous.

As someone who had recently left an abusive relationship, I cried buckets when I saw this film, especially the bit where she climbs the North Mountain and believes she's free at last after being trapped all her life.

CharlotteCollins Must admit as someone with a much beloved older sister, I always tear up watching it & I love the fact that true love's kiss doesn't come from a man, I loved that about Maleificent, I was blarting in the cinema over that one too! I've been encouraged by the amount of Moms of slightly older girls telling me that this Disney princess fad has a shelf life, they seem to hit 7-8 and it suddenly becomes very naff & they move on to others things. I had an eating disorder & self-harmed for years, and although they are both symptoms of mental illness, I know cultural pressure to look & act a certain way (be thin, be nice, be seen & not heard) certainly doesn't help, it gives girls who are struggling anyway a very convienent stick to beat themselves with. So I worry for DC a lot, but the experience of other Moms gives me hope, I hope she does just brush this off as a phase. Looking for the positives, I try to emphasise the point that is a Elsa is a pretty awesome architect

DD is obsessed with Frozen.

She told me she's going to be an ice queen when she grows up, but also wants to be a microbiologist thanks to big bang theory (she may have been swayed by the nice cardigan!)

I think as long as we keep providing out children with positive role models they'll do ok.

Frozen passes the Bechdel test in the first scene. it's not perfect (the sisters are separated for most of the film and there are more male than female characters and when you consider it was 'based' on The Snow Queen it's really shite) but it's definitely making the nod to feminism. The original Sleeping Beauty also has lots of females, it's the fairies that have agency in that film, both Sleeping Beauty and the Prince don't really do much even in the original (not seen Malificent). Brave and Tangled are both about mother-daughter relationships much more than romantic love. Anastasia (not Disney) is about a Princess rejecting that role (admittedly for romantic love). All pass the Bechdel, some more than others. Disney's non-Princess movies are better, we love Lilo and Stitch and The Rescuers. Wreck it Ralph has two good female characters but is still poor on passing the Bechdel (it might, just but I'd need to check).

Agree about Studio Ghibli, I also really like the slower pace in comparison to the wham bam of American films, and they have the depth of female characters that only Lilo and Stitch can compete with.

pretty awesome architect :o

My DDs, who are 11 and 9, are much more aware of the cultural pressure to be thin than I ever was at that age. They've watched so many YouTube clips that they found themselves where Disney characters are given realistic proportions, or models are photoshopped or whatever. Their younger sister recently got an Elsa doll from me and we older ones had a good giggle about how ridiculously long her neck is and how big her bug eyes are!

I think many of you are underestimating your daughters' intelligence and ability to realise they are watching a cartoon based on a fairy story.

Yes perhaps, StillLost, I hope I am in many ways. Perhaps this generation will be more savvy, or her as an individual will be better able to combat these things than I was. I've never even considered the role of fairies, in terms of them having agency, I like that :)

It is so hard to keep your Dd 'undisneyfied' when frozen et al is everywhere!

I have been known to 're gift' Disney princess presents that have sneaked into our house.

I suppose I'm lucky that dd calls herself a 'tomboy' and kind of rebels against the Disney machine. She still knows the words to let it go though.

Calling herself a "tomboy" and your approval of it is merely perpetuating an idea of things boys do which are good and things girls do which aren't.

Re-gifting presents because the are "girls' things" is reinforcing negatively as well. Are these presents she liked? Or was she never even allowed to see them?