daughter problems

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my daughter is only 4, but i asked her yesterday (as i was worried by something she had said) "which is more important to be pretty or clever?"

well as i am here asking for advice you can guess her answer.

I am sure you knew what to tell her, OP. But I am wondering what we mean by 'clever' when we tell our kids that it's important. Not everyone can be top of the class. Some kids will struggle with academic achievement no matter how hard they try.

I think it's important that they have an enquiring mind, that they feel free to question things, that they are encouraged to think critically and not always accept things at face value. I don't think English speakers always mean this when we tell our children that they must be 'clever'.

Yops may have a point. Is clever always a good thing? My dd sometimes gets teased for being 'clever'. She is a top-of-the-class kind of girl, but most of her friends are not.

Why are pretty and clever the only 2 choices? And why are they put in opposition to each other?

My dd sometimes gets teased for being 'clever'. isn't this said as one of the biggest barriers to female acheivement?

you are right, if she isn't naturally clever making that the important thing would be really mean. And not in opposition i thought but if you were both smart and pretty and some evil person gave you a choice you could only be 1 (acid splash or lobotomy) which would you choose?

It was an overly simplistic question aimed at a 4 year old as she was showing worrying traits in her conversation that day.

And sorry i am terrible at wording Opening Posts, I know myself, family and childcarer have caused this princess problem so what now can we do to balance this out, as it is now too late to ban all princess dresses and jewelry.

Maybe this should be in a different topic but i just thought you ladies would be the most impassioned about it.

I wasn't having a go at you, OP. I fully understand your point, and the way that our daughters can think. It's good that we get them out of this idea that prettiness is the be-all and end-all.

Maybe what you are really asking is how do I raise a feminist child and stop my dd from stereotyping herself? It's really hard when the whole rest of the world is encouraging her to fit the mould.

My advice would be to model the behaviour that you want to see. Play football AND make jewellery (or whatever). If you have a man in your life, encourage him to do similar. Also, challenge sexism when you see it, explain to dd why you disagree or disapprove. Uncle John may think x, but I don't agree with that, I think y.

All that princess stuff is really annoying. My dd was heavily into it all at age 4 or 5, but thankfully grew out of it after a while. Don't lose heart!

I'd echo MrsS, OP. My daughter had her Snow White costumes and glittery make-up. Now she is preparing to go to uni in September. She also played football for the school. This stuff is just a phase in her life, as long as you are there to guide her through it.

thanks mrs Squirrel, that is what i want to know.

I think you have to embrace the positives of the princesses and talk about how kind Snow White is or how brave Merida is or how much Anna and Elsa love each other. If she says they are pretty say 'when you love someone they always are beautiful'. Introduce positive role models like Mary Anning or Florence Nightingale or Ada Lovelace or Julia Donaldson or Jessica Ennis, women that sre valued for more than their looks. Praise her for being strong or hard working or neat or thoughtful or sporty instead of commenting on her clothes.

Why are pretty and clever the only 2 choices? And why are they put in opposition to each other

Indeed. I was both at that age and neither involved any effort on my part. As I grew up I was still both although effort did have to be put in.

I actually think it's a weird question to put to a 4 year old, especially if you were trying to put some sort of value judgement that pretty people are of less value than clever people.

as it is now too late to ban all princess dresses and jewelry

Is it too late to ban fun too? I'm sorry but this sort of reverse sexism irritates me. I loved princessy stuff , still do; utterly loathed sport, still do. Oddly my princessy brain didn't stop me getting a law degree, buying my first house as a single woman with my own earned money at 23, combining motherhood and a full time career.

Why not use examples like Lily Cole and Emma Watson?

You don't have to choose between pretty and clever. You can be both, and many, many women are.

Hell, just look at the photos from Oxford's uni fashion show, or a netball team. Gorgeous, bright women and not in short supply.

I used to default to "big and strong and smart". I now focus on being a good tryer and bring kind.

It's so heart breaking though, it surrounds their little minds.

I would never ask pretty or clever. I leave her be (age5) to be herself. Her wardrobe had girls and unisex stuff (others may say boy stuff). She refused pink and dresses from age 2. Her choice not mine. A liberated girl can define who she is

I think this is a strange thread especially in feminism.

All this talk about 'pretty' puzzles me.

Some girls cannot be clever and pretty or gorgeous.
Not all woman are pretty however hard they try.

I refused to buy my DDs Barbie and Sindy dolls or pink clothes, but in retrospect I was wrong.

My DGDs get great enjoyment from their Princess dresses and Barbie dolls.

Good point about "pretty" and "clever" being put in opposition.

And they are aren't they.

Many many people have a hard time when a woman who is "pretty" (as opposed to good looking) is also good at / interested in something which requires brains and especially if it's a "masculine" discipline.

So for eg if you have a female engineer doing something people are OK with that if she looks like what people expect a female engineer to look like, but if she's "pretty" then people have a much harder time accepting it.

I have heard that good looking men can have trouble being taken seriously and I'm sure that true, people who look much younger than they are also. But women who look "pretty" have particular trouble in that area I think.

Anyway. Agree with others that you do what you can at home. Give them access to a full range of toys and things. Let them do what they will. Talk about (as others said) how Anna or whoever is good at solving problems, or brave, or strong, or kind. And don't fall into the trap of sneering about "feminine" stuff (I am a bit like this due to my upbringing) as all you are communicating is "girls stuff is crap ergo girls are crap" which is also a terrible message.

pax that's an interesting perspective, wh do you feel now in hindsight that I you were wrong to ban Barbie?

It's so disheartening but as posters say above they do grow out of it if they're encouraged to think critically. We talk a lot about the many different ways to be pretty, and that it's a shame that Barbie, Disney etc only show one type (white, thin, tall etc). I also give DD lots of compliments for being strong, healthy, brave, thoughtful etc.

Just remembered something else I heard about the "learning mindset" which says it's better for children to be praised for effort ("you worked really hard at that") as opposed to blanket statements on ability ("you're clever") which can actually have a detrimental effect as they may not feel they can live up to it.

She's 4 for goodness sake. Let her be a child. "Worrying traits" Ffs.

Suddenly: I was wrong to ban Barbie / Sindy because my DDs wanted them. Now I think I was being mean, because I wasn't taking their views on board.

If a girl asks Father Christmas for a Barbie and doesn't get one because the mother doesn't like them, that is quite controlling really.

I have been told that otherwise I was a lovely Mum!

Maude's examples of clever, gorgeous women is depressing really.
If girls aspire to be like Lilly cole and Emma Watson are they failures when they don't succeed?

I have a DGD wanting to join the Army. She's 11 and thinks that guns are really cool. I did mention that sometimes soldiers have to kill people, she thinks that is really cool too.
I wish she still liked her princess dresses!

Obviously, I'll still love her whatever choice she makes in life.

If girls aspire to be like Lilly cole and Emma Watson are they failures when they don't succeed?

Not my point at all. My point was that pretty and clever do not have to oppose, and that you do not have to choose between the two. You can be both.

Replace those names with any women you like. They were names I picked out of thin air for being gorgeous and Oxbridge educated.

Obviously a hearty understanding of the different types of pretty and different types of intelligence is important too.

I would respond by saying neither. You can't choose to be clever, neither can you choose to be pretty. But you can choose to be a good friend and a caring person. That's much more important.

Trisgaron: so true.

This thread seems to devalue women if they are not Oxbridge material.
Are the women behind the till in Asda of less value than someone who is Oxbridge educated?

No... hence why I said Obviously a hearty understanding of the different types of pretty and different types of intelligence is important too.

And for the record, I have been both behind a till in a supermarket and a student at Oxbridge in my time.