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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is the motive behind this behaviour?? (long and rambling)

54 replies

BreeVDKamp · 27/02/2015 14:57

(Sorry if this is not the right topic!)

This morning I was climbing some stairs up to the local Post Office. A man came chasing me up the stairs, saying something to me. I thought he wanted to get past, or say something important, so I took my headphones out - but nope! He was just catcalling and saying “Hello beautiful!” in this really sickening, lecherous tone, and looking me up and down. He actually reached out to touch me!!

I just scowled at him and kept walking, and he disappeared, but I was fucking enraged and wanted to shout: “I am 7 months pregnant and married, what the fuck do you hope to achieve here??”. I didn’t because on the one hand I didn’t want to give him the satisfaction of acknowledging him, and on the other hand I was a little apprehensive of what he would say back to me.

Last time I said something back to one of these people, it went like this:

Moron In Street: Sexy lady!!!!
?Me: Shut up. (lame I know)
?MIS: YOU SHUT UP! FAT BITCH!!

…After just having said I was sexy! And I thought he was going to follow me after that, he sounded FURIOUS that I had dared talk back.

Now, this behaviour makes me so livid. It is a daily occurence where I live, men doing this in the street. What is the reason they do it? I know it has absolutely nothing to do with how beautiful the woman is, as my example above demonstrates (and behaving this way because the woman is stunning is just as gross, obvs). They will do it to anyone and in my experience it doesn’t matter how dressed up or scruffy I am, they will still do it. It seems there is nothing I can wear that doesn’t make me feel like I am on show to please the men, because they will behave like this no matter what I am wearing. It is not about how attractive the woman is, it is something else. And what is that something? What are they trying to achieve or demonstrate?

Also, it is always a certain kind of man, but what kind of man? In my experience it is not to do with race or age, but no man I choose to associate with would ever dream of intimidating a woman in the street like this, or even saying “cheer up love, it might never happen!”. It wouldn't even occur to them. Likewise I would never think to leer at a man in the street, let alone say something to them. So what is the common factor here?

It’s maddening because I do find it intimidating, but they would say that they are just being nice and paying you a compliment, so how can that be intimidating? It is so underhanded. Maybe that is why it is so rife.

On similar threads in the past I’ve seen women say : “Just be glad you get some attention!” / “Ah, they are just trying to cheer you up” / “You’ll miss it when you’re old!”… but no. That is not the point.

I get enough attention from my husband, I don’t want attention from this kind of….. (Agh, what is that word!!! This is what I can’t put my finger on!) I don’t want attention from this kind of predatory???* man.

I don’t need cheering up, I am ludicrously happy in my life thanks. That is just my face at rest. I won’t walk around with a smile on my face and get sore cheeks just in case I walk past a man who would rather I smile.

I will not miss it when I am old, I was hoping having a baby bump might stop this sort of thing, at least temporarily. Will it continue when I’m pushing my newborn down the street, or when I’m walking along with a toddler or school-age child??

*I don’t know if it’s predatory. It’s like they think they are God’s gift and we women will be delighted that they deign to talk to us. So, arrogance then? But even that is not it. I don’t know the word to describe their attitude. Can anyone help me out here? Confused

We are moving out of London soon and I am hoping this won't happen so much. I never experienced this behaviour before I moved to London, but I was 18 when I moved here from the countryside so perhaps I just hadn’t had the opportunity to experience this beforehand. I never experience this behaviour outside of London, but perhaps that’s because if I am in other cities I am not just running errands/living my everyday life, so don’t notice it, and I’m less likely to be walking around by myself - I’ve rarely had this happen if walking along with a friend or in a group. It’s like they don’t have the balls to act this way unless it’s to a lone woman.

It’s sad - because I’m so used to this happening, I am always prepared to be defensive when walking down the street, so if a man makes eye contact and says good morning or something, perfectly nicely, I always skip a beat before smiling and saying hello back while I try and work out if there is a horrible objectifying comment coming. It’s sad! I like strangers being friendly to each other!

Another thing is, they’re so thick that if a man ever behaved in the same way to one of their daughters, I bet they would beat him up, and wouldn’t see the contradiction here.

AIBU and absurd to be so utterly incensed by this vile culture? I don’t even know what to call it. The day to day objectifying of women? What are they trying to do? Why do they do it? It makes my blood boil. What is the word for this behaviour??? And what can I do about it?

OP posts:
AKnickerfulOfMenace · 01/03/2015 07:22

Interesting thanks KID.

PilchardPrincess · 01/03/2015 09:58

Yes that was really interesting!

The motivations for this stuff are simply not what most people prefer to think they are, are they. They are not about a man being nice to a woman, they are about men demanding attention or else.

Course some men will give you a nice smile as you walk past but that's not what this is about (in case any readers are getting ready to post that feminists want to ban men Grin )

Callooh · 01/03/2015 10:12

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

rivetingrosie · 01/03/2015 16:00

BreeVDKamp I am SO on your side with this, and with all the other posters who have argued that this is a power play and a way of claiming dominance over public space.

I totally empathise with how defensive this makes you. I grew up in London and I think the peak for cat calling was when I was about 15-16 yo (isn't that gross?) and there has been a gradual dwindling since then. I started getting leered at from about 12 yo, since I had quite an early puberty, and I think facing that sort of harassment at a really impressionable age really changes you. I've never been able to get past my fear of construction workers in public spaces - I still cross the road and fix my eyes on the floor if I see a hi-vis vest, I've just had so many bad experiences.

A friend of mine recently walked past me on the street and shouted something I didn't hear properly. I assumed he was harassing me so I threw him a dirty look and started walking faster to get away from him. He was quite offended initially and when I explained my reasoning he was really upset - he has young daughters and was horrified to think they'd be facing this sort of treatment in only a few years time.

If anyone on here has any tips about how to deal with harassment I'd love to hear them! I'm always too intimidated to shout back.

BreeVDKamp · 01/03/2015 18:49

KID that is interesting!! Next time I am catcalled I'm thinking I might say: "Why thank you! Yes I am very beautiful!" whilst keeping walking and see what happens. And then I will post on MN about it Grin

Callooh That was a great video! Watched a few of the Related Videos on YouTube afterwards - men in the street explaining why they catcall (all sounded utterly moronic, all different types of people and sadly some very young teens!), and a woman catcalling men, who all looked very uncomfortable. Gah.

OP posts:
ClaudetteWyms · 01/03/2015 21:41

Love the video with the Peruvian mothers berating their abusive sons!

This is all so depressing though, I remember being harassed in the street from the age of around 12, my beautiful DD has around 5 years left before she becomes a target Sad Oh, and although I live in a city now, I grew up in a village, so it isn't just a city thing imo.

I haven't been harassed in the street for years (am old and unattractive) then the other day out of the blue I got a "hellooo sexy" from a sleazy guy walking past me. Really freaked me out - it is completely about power, it is verbal assault.

I would love to hear a solution/tips for dealing with it too. I have always just carried on walking, pretending I didn't hear.

Vivacia · 02/03/2015 06:52

I'm seriously toying with the idea of printing out some of those business cards.

BreeVDKamp · 02/03/2015 12:32

Having had a quick look at Hollaback and the everyday sexism project, they seem to be mainly about sharing your stories. Doesn't there need to be an actual campaign where men are challenged on their behaviour? I don't want to just post my OP onto one of those sites, I want to help stamp these occurrences out. Just not sure how to actually do anything about it Confused.
Definitely going to look into 'volunteering remotely' with Hollaback once we have moved and had our baby (lots happening at the mo!).

OP posts:
kickassangel · 02/03/2015 16:15

I thought the business cards were on the Hollaback site, - I really liked them.

But, having looked at their resources page, I can't see them. there are How To guides on how to organize some projects if you really want to do something. They also have their 'Bystander's Guide' on there.

The wording on the business cards is:

HELLO
You are receiving this card because you made an unwanted sexual advance towards me. Hello beautiful, hey baby, kissy noises, comments about people's bodies, or any other form of cat calling are NOT compliments. This may be embarrassing for you since you were previously unaware of how degrading comments like these are bu now you know. Please respect my choice to not engage you in conversation. To further your education on these topics, contact ...

rivetingrosie · 02/03/2015 19:16

Those business cards look amazing! Wouldn't be much help if a guy shouted out of a car or something, but for creeps in coffee shops they'd be ace

diddlediddledumpling · 02/03/2015 19:26

I think this video is great at explaining what underlies this kind of thing.

diddlediddledumpling · 02/03/2015 19:27

sorry

Vivacia · 02/03/2015 20:07

I couldn't find the cards on Hollaback, so I Googled images for the cards. I liked the one that listed things like,

staring is street harassment
cat-calling is street harassment
groping is street harassment

Vivacia · 02/03/2015 20:09

Oops, meant to start by thanking diddle for the vid.

GibberingFlapdoodle · 03/03/2015 13:18

Looking at the Hollaback site just now, there's a story on there about a woman working with 13 yr olds and being harassed by them. I've been harassed by lads ecen younger, maybe 9 or 10 yr olds. It just makes me wonder again how the hell they get to think this is acceptable at so young an age??

It's all very well saying, as in that story, they're emotionally disturbed. That's irrelevant. I was 'emotionally disturbed' as modern parlance has it, by street harassment and a bad family background, by that age if not younger. Didn't turn me into a harasser did it? Nor has it for other girls. No it's just the cultural behaviour of males in our society.

GibberingFlapdoodle · 03/03/2015 13:24

I have also wondered a few times if the huge amount of amateur psychology around now isn't helping - whether it provides excuses. Or does it? If violent crime has gone down (I find any official statistic about crime a bit dubious, but that's what it's claiming), something's driven it.

When I say amateur psychology,I mean all the talk about being emotionally disturbed or depressed etc. Sometimes it seems from the stories on mumsnet that kids get 'depressed' nowadays if anyone ever says anything they don't like, but I'm prepared to be told that I'm just an old grumbling fogey. In my day... Smile

GuiltyAsAGirlCanBe · 03/03/2015 13:25

You are right about it being a London problem. I used to experience it A LOT when I lived there.

I now live back in the provinces, and don't get it so much - though I did get it a lot in my teens. I don't think I was an especially attractive teenager, I just think intimidation and power has a lot to do with it, and they won't dare do it to an adult woman who an hold her own.

GuiltyAsAGirlCanBe · 03/03/2015 13:27

They call it "Eve teasing" in India. The name kind of seems apt, but I'm not sure in ago is or bad way...

GibberingFlapdoodle · 03/03/2015 13:46

A London problem?? Ha, I wish!! I lived in a small town in a green belt area in the north. Street harassment got bad enough that I couldn't walk out of the door without getting something from age 15 onwards. It started at around age 11, maybe in mild doses even younger. It was at the time considered a deprived area. I have had trouble in lots of places - guess I just gave off those victim vibes - but it was reduced outside of that region.

ClaudetteWyms · 03/03/2015 14:08

There are a lot more people in London so it can seem like it happens a lot more there, but it happens everywhere. I grew up in a small village and went to school in a small town and suffered harassment as a preteen and young teen long before I moved to London.

kickassangel · 03/03/2015 15:47

I like the video diddle linked to, except that ALL the talk is very "Yo!Bro!" even though the men are predominantly white.

I'd like to see the guy in a suit who presses up against a woman on the subway, or talks about how he has the hot secretary etc as well. Otherwise it implies that only a certain kind of man does this, and it just isn't true.

I once worked at the post office and my boss there used to come up to my sister and me, put his arm around our shoulders, and say 'hello girls'. Then when the parcels were packed up for the night, the regular staff would stand around in a circle and make the Christmas part timers lift the sacks into the carts. They would be commenting on our tits and arse as we did so. It was VERY clear that there was no point in a complaint - this obviously happened all the time and was part of the banter. Dsis & I worked there a total of 4 days.

GibberingFlapdoodle · 03/03/2015 16:54

In my mind there is a certain type of male who links egotism and aggression. Those are the markers I look for to establish if a bloke is likely to cause trouble. You find them stuffed into a city suit just as easily as into a hoodie. If not more so, our economic system seems entirely geared to celebrate those values. I do not.

Notrevealingmyidentity · 03/03/2015 17:00

I've heard it described on here as using the woman as a sort of reflective surface to semi stare their power. It's not about you , it's about them using You to display their manly power in public. As in "I'm a man so I can do this and show off my manliness"

Notrevealingmyidentity · 03/03/2015 17:03

Display not semi stare !!

diddlediddledumpling · 03/03/2015 17:16

i think the video is meant to be light-hearted, although very perceptive at the same time. idont think its meant to imply anything about the demographic of the men who do this. More that the people who made the film are a group of predominantly young, white Americans who wear jeans.
i think the script is spot on.