Kids books - find this really worrying

[BeakyMinder]

Recently I did something very sad and geeky. I read every single one of the 43 picture books belonging to my DDs and counted every single gender reference: he, she, him, her, his, hers. No complicated contextual analysis.

Result = about 75% male, 25% female

So basically, females are invisible in kids books - we talk less, are talked about less, & often don't appear at all. Lots of books with all-male casts.

Maybe it's just me with a house full of sexist books, but seems unlikely given I'm the feminist DD of a feminist and have 2 DDs.

Fuck, it's depressing. Any of you think something could be done about it?

That's very interesting Panda thanks.

Lovely that's interesting about Peppa.

I suppose one of the more common adjectives used to describe her is that loaded word "bossy". And she's possibly no more annoying and demanding than any other child. Maybe it's just more "obvious" because she is female.

They do make some attempt to show Daddy Pig doing cooking and shopping I suppose, and Mummy Pig seems to be more practical than Daddy.

For me it's a bit too "2.4 children", but I only notice this because I come from a family which isn't. Dd is only young but I can already see that any questioning of our family set up (when it comes) will come from a "Peppa has a mummy and a daddy, why don't I?" place.

Projecting - Melody might be good for you and DD, if you haven't already seen it?

Is that the CBeebies one with the blond child? I think I've caught bits.

Dd is very aware at the moment of mummies and daddies. Men are all daddies and women are all mummies.

It's not going to be long before she asks....

Yet she was probably only the hero because of Dodgson's extremely unhealthy obsession with young girls & to me the whole book has always given me the creeps and comes across as an attempt at grooming

The idea that Dodgson had an unhealthy involvement with Alice has persisted, although there is no evidence to support it. Three major biographies published in the 1990s, by Donald Thomas, Michael Bakewell and Morton Cohen, suggested that he had paedophilic urges but never acted on them.

I found both books disturbing due to the topsy turvey world and the quixotic nature of the characters. They are a brilliant piece of writing.

I think all the non pre-gendered characters in Alice are male? The gardeners, the white rabbit, the dormouse etc?

Someone mentioned Charlie and Lola as a strong female lead. Superficially yes, but it's Charlie who gets all the good ideas and Lola who wants to run around with moon ponies and do special princess dancing. I like that series and (ha ha) it isn't all like that, but I don't know if it's the best example of a pro-feminist perspective. Dora the explorer isn't too bad.

We have easily 100 books so I won't volunteer to count characters. But with 2 DS a lot of books are about boys. A favourite with a heroine is 'The day Louis got eaten'. Now DS1 is reading chapter books it seems 'safe' to go for books about boys, eg Horrid Henry, Captain Underpants. I do remember being appalled in Waterstones years ago when I was looking for advice on a book to buy a 7 yr old girl, the assistant said 'if it was a boy I'd recommend Horrid Henry'. Books seem to be either about a boy or a girl not so much a group like the classics mentioned are.

Buffy, I don't work in the field at all, no. Just remain interested.

I think it is not so much that the language from literature is reflected in real life, but that literature is written as a representation of real life, hence the shocking trends shown, which are indeed found in everyday life.

Generally speaking, a female who is seen as strident, bossy, haranguing, controlling, (and more - the list is endless!) is typically using (in simplistic terms) male speech patterns. The same could b said for males who are seen as effeminate - think of adjectives used to describe them, such as softly-spoken, etc. generally, they would be using what is seen as typically female speech patterns.

This effect is seen from the earliest ages, because of course, children learn by example, and what broader example is there than the language you are surrounded by? It is everywhere, all day long. From properly targeted stuff in advertising campaigns to the more everyday chats at the school gate or exchanges in shops.

The whole section of my degree (language use between the sexes) was fascinating. I chose my dissertation because I was interested in the literature side too, but the course basis was wider, and more centred on real life.

Still did you see that documentary about him recently? It was documented that the Liddells cut off all contact with him suddenly which there was no real explanation for (he mentions it in his diary). Then recently they have found a picture of the oldest Liddell daughter (not Alice) topless which was almost certainly taken by him, dating from almost exactly the same time.

(I have a clear memory of seeing a naked picture of Alice Liddell in a book or another TV documentary several years ago - I can still see it in my mind's eye - yet this wasn't mentioned in the documentary at all. I wonder if it turned out to be a fake or even if it is my own memory playing tricks. If I did see it, and it was a fake, maybe the one I mentioned above is too.)

I think all the non pre-gendered characters in Alice are male? The gardeners, the white rabbit, the dormouse etc?

They are but what struck me is that they are all also stark raving bonkers/ completely useless too. Alice is by far the strongest character.

True - but then it is her dream!

Don't get me wrong, I like it and I like the character. But it doesn't really get away from "default character setting = male" if the book has a heroine but 80%+ of her interactions are with males.

I got in to feminism around the time I had my first DC a boy, 8 years ago and wow the books really are depressing. I now have two DS and I used to change him to her when reading the books some books and when it was a character like a bear or a rabbit it also became a her just to counter act the norm of saying him, he and so on. One of our firm favorites were the Zog book ;-)

Many of our books are still in storage, or I'd go and count.

I was watching West Wing today, and noticed that when they have children (school classes) in the show, then it is more often the boys asking insightful questions, and taking the lead. I suspect a lot of books are similar.

A Bechtel Test of kids books would be interesting. Would make a brilliant dissertation!