FFS, how would you ever START to explain this?

[PrincessSmartipants]

There's a team activity that goes on all over the UK that is traditionally male dominated for absolutely no reason other than, well, tradition no shit . Some teams do welcome women but it turns out our local one doesn't, as a female FB friend found out this week.

So she posted asking if any local women would be interested in starting their own all-female team, and quite a few (including me) said yes they would.

And then, you guessed it, along came A Man. And lo, the Man said, it should be a mixed team. You women should be leading by example, he explained, rather than pissing off men by excluding them.

Oh yes, said my female friend, sorry, of course it can be mixed.

I am not so keen to be part of it now and can't find the words to express why I suppose in part its because a) why is it womens' responsibility to lead by example? and b) it is surely fair enough that if men have their own team, women can too? A new mixed team widens the options for men but actually reduces the space that could be available to women

I would say exactly that:

I would be happy to play in a mixed team, but the Anywhere Flyers choose to exclude women. So we've had to set up our own women's team for women to have an option to take part in this activity.

When we have had to go to all the trouble of doing this, I really don't think that it's fair that we should be forced into being a mixed team, thus reducing places for women, but doubling the options for men. I think it's frankly rude that Adam talks about being 'pissed off' that he can't join our team, but hasn't the emotional or intellectual reach to extend that to being pissed off on our behalf that we've been excluded for so long.

If Adam feels so strongly about the issue of mixed teams, I'm interested why he hasn't taken it up with the Anywhere Flyers. I'm sorry, but I'm not happy to be on a team where someone will bully their way on.

I'd go with b) as a more reasonable reason. That and wholeheartedly rejecting a man telling women how to do feminism. If this man wants to be part of a mixed team, why doesn't he start one himself?

I would argue a women only team is not discriminatory in this scenario as you are ensuring an equal number of places m/f in the area.
If man wants to set an example, he should join the male group and change the rules from within.

That is beautifully put! I was having trouble explaining my feelings even to myself never mind to anyone else...

It just feels like women can't have anything sometimes. Not without a massive battle and a barrage of criticism.

The worst thing is that he wasn't even expressing a wish to join in himself, he isn't even particularly local! He was just having a pop at the very idea of a women-only anything for the sheer hell of it

He was just having a pop at the very idea of a women-only anything for the sheer hell of it

There is a feminist group that I'm a member of, which states clearly that it is for women only. There are, quite literally 1000s of other feminist groups which welcome men, this is one that doesn't.

The number of men who have changed their facebook accounts to join and the number of women who make out that this is discriminatory to men is completely mind boggling.

Princess just tell him that if he wants to play on a mixed team he should start one himself or petition for women to be allowed on the men's team. And then disengage.

Dealing with this kind of ill thought out bullshit when you could be getting on with playing the sport is just another way in which the patriarchy is sabotaging your life

It's really annoying that women constantly have to make space and allowances for men - it never goes the other way.

If he doesn't even want to play then I would approach your friend and say something more like

"I saw Adam feels it is unfair and discriminatory that we are setting up a women's only team.

I would be happy to play in a mixed team, but the Anywhere Flyers choose to exclude women. So we've had to set up our own women's team for women to have an option to take part in this activity.

When we have had to go to all the trouble of doing this, I really don't think that it's fair that we should be forced into being a mixed team, thus reducing places for women, but doubling the options for men. I think it's frankly rude that Adam talks about men being 'pissed off' that he can't join our team, but hasn't the emotional or intellectual reach to extend that to being pissed off on our behalf that we've been excluded for so long. And as for 'leading by example', he isn't so hot on that himself is he, since he's never taken it up with the men's only team?

If you want to turn this into a mixed team I will be very sad, but will understand [say whether you'd still join]. I just wanted to put the other side of the argument, because I really don't see why we should bend over backwards to accommodate the very same bunch of people who didn't care that we couldn't join their team."

I think it's a pity that the woman who set this up was willing to say "Oh yes, sorry, of course it can be mixed". She could so easily (and logically) have said "Oh yes, if you want to play, the all-male team round the corner will welcome you". (And not have included the word "sorry".)

Sometimes the words to "Georgie Porgie, pudding and pie" keep going through one's head.

Just wait till the transexuals show up. Then the fun will really begin.

Its not up to me really as its not my team, I'm not organising it, its only a fledgling idea at the moment anyway. But yes, you are right, its a waste of my mental capacity (diminished as it is by lack of sleep and constant demands for DOOS and BEEBIES) to be dealing with this shit!

But yes messaging the friend who had the idea is probably worth a try. If it had been my idea and my post I'd have been all, oh haha you never mentioned being interested before but there's a fair few all-male teams you can try if you want a go!

Thank you all for helping me work out exactly why it felt all wrong

Ultimately, I guess the thing is that the woman is responding to the situation that exists. She isn't creating the segregation so it's hard to know why it's her responsibility to solve both issues - that women can't currently play and that the teams are segregated.

I wonder whether he has the same demands of the men? Of course not.