West London Free School founder Toby Young spectacularly misses the point on Page 3

[Alsoflamingo]

I am staggered that there hasn't been more of a reaction to this ridiculous piece in The Spectator: blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/je-suis-page-3/
If I was a parent at WLFS I would be v. tempted to move my child on the basis of these views. Depressing in the extreme.

Of course the opinion of all these people are irrelevant, aren't they Toby Dotheyfloat?

The NUT, NASUWT, ATL, NAHT (combining over 780,000 teachers, lecturers and Head Teachers). Clearly their views are irrelevant. Oh - and Unison (largest union with 1.3 million members)

But hey, what do they know?

I expect any other opinions are irrelevant because they are held by (a) women and/or (b) people who aren't Toby Young

I am not pro page 3. I approve of its removal, not that its absence will make me any more likely to pick up the Sun. I've simply expressed the opinion that the social relevance of page 3 has been greatly diminished, and that the energy spent on campaigning against it would be better spent on more serious issues, e.g. the accessibility of hardcore internet pornography and the social consequences that has.

In response I've got 'hurr durr you're Toby', an appeal to authority, hyperbole, a dismissive reference to a site that doesn't address my main point and 'we can't be bothered to argue'.

God help women who are interested in feminism but think page 3 is a comparatively minor issue.

Why are you bothering to tell us what we should and shouldn't be focusing on? Don't you think that's highly patronising, Toby Dotheyfloat? Surely individual feminists get to decide which issues are important to them. We really don't need you to give us your frankly completely irrelevant opinion - it adds nothing to the conversation for you to say "well I don't care about this issue!!!!!!". We care, and that's all that matters.

Pretty much every feminist is interested in how women are depicted in media and film, Toby. Given that you know so much about the subject, I'm sure you're aware of why. All those silly little things about aspiration and psychology.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that women can't be photographed with their breasts out, however, when 'women looking attractive' is the only narrative about them, then we have a problem. Having the only depictions of women in certain types of newspaper as passive and decorative reinforces the idea that that is all women are good for. If men see women solely as passive and decorative, why would they need to consider their feelings or even bodily autonomy?

The way women are viewed is central to feminism. It shapes women's lives.

No doubt you'll now just tell me I'm stupid or don't know what I'm talking about, or make some puerile comment. I might try and care. I probably won't though, your opinions about women are clear.

Gosh if I had a pound for everyone who has told me over the last week that feminism has more important battles to fight than page 3!

Still unclear whether the issue is TY's narrow-mindedness or actual stupidity… Jury still out. I guess one feeds into the other.

As I explained upthread, spending 5 minutes here: nomorepage3.org/faqs-2/
should help you. Yes, the website's FAQs section address the very issues you have raised.

But somehow I get the feeling TY doesn't really want to understand. He'd rather champion unpleasant and deliberately provocative views - because he can. All terribly teenage. One would have thought he'd have grown out of it by now.

It's such a shame.

Men like this will lead to Free Schools being seen as a bad thing. Which will leave a lot of children with complex SEN again being taught in completely unsuitable educational settings.

I agree it is extremely unhelpful given the current round of news about Free School closures.

The good news, however, is that I think TY is pretty much the only person to be coming out with such utter nonsense within education.

I hope so!

The nomorepage3 campaign suggests a link between page3 and hardcore porn, and that removing the former is a step in dealing with the latter.

That's bullshit.

Hardcore porn has been around for several thousand years longer than page 3. At the current rate of progress, the Sun, that is the big yellow one in the sky, will have exploded and died before hardcore porn ceases to exist. Whilst the removal of page 3 is to be welcomed, be under no delusion that the campaign against it has been a constructive use of time; it represents little more than a high-profile token victory.

Which feminist campaigns are you involved in that you have found a constructive use of time, Dothey? Describe them and maybe you'll find some here interested in joining in.

I suppose it's a fun Sunday morning for some, posting on every thread in this section to tell feminists how silly they are

Looks like it's not just Toby Young who doesn't know what NMP3 is trying to achieve or what it says or strands for.

What a grade a twat that man is.

"PetulaGordino Sun 08-Feb-15 11:17:16

I suppose it's a fun Sunday morning for some, posting on every thread in this section to tell feminists how silly they are "

I would ask you to support that claim, but what's the point in asking someone to justify a hyperbolic, semi-hysterical, accusation?

Better to just sit back and smile.

Any thoughts on my question, Dothey? Or do you prefer to just snipe at Petula?

Oh indeed

I prefer to talk about the topic at hand. Maybe you don't, but that's not my concern.

"Talking about the topic at hand does not prohibit conversational flexibility. "

So on that basis...

"Any thoughts on my question, Dothey? Or do you prefer to just snipe at Petula?"

No.