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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

ISIS and women

93 replies

Spacemen3 · 25/01/2015 17:53

This may be a bit of a dumb-ass start to a thread..but I was reading about the Yazidi women and girls who escaped from ISIS...and also recently I watched a documentary about the Islamic girls schools that are being expanded in Afghanistan...

Are most of ISIS objectives for their new caliphate about owning/controlling/abusing women? What else is in their manifesto specifically?...i know everyone one will be an observant Muslim/pray/grow beards/not drink blah de blah..

Am I being stupid, or is that pretty much the crux of it??? Confused

OP posts:
MephistophelesApprentice · 26/01/2015 15:56

Buffy

A demonic pact, obvs.

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 16:00

i think the opposite MephistophelesApprentice - that it is not inherent in men, it is socialised, and i don't think i implied otherwise. it is a genderised problem - men's oppression of women - and i'm going to name that. i don't believe that men's socialisation in the west is free from misogyny by any means, and i think it is dangerous for men in the west to say "they aren't real men, unlike us", because as ReallyAngryBeavers says, they are very much men and to "other" them like that can risk (note i say risk, not all men are like that) abdicating responsibility or acknowledgement for any sexist behaviour of their own

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 16:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BreakingDad77 · 26/01/2015 16:14

In addition Buffy going back the persecution of Witches - how many Warlocks got dunked! Coming back to the present, I thought a fair number of lesbians ended up in the gas chambers during Hitlers time, coming further forward in the west we were doing a fair bit of unnecessary compulsory sterilisation, and bringing us up to today in our 'secular society' where we still have problems as other have mentioned.

The article I posted shows how women fighting in the region have tried to fit into that system.

Its a war and in war women get the pointy end of the stick generally, no doubt a lot of women got raped in the bosnia, darfur, etc This is not justifying whats going on

BreakingDad77 · 26/01/2015 16:16

I meant to add and religion wasn't necessarily the reason why these rapes occurred.

MephistophelesApprentice · 26/01/2015 16:16

PetulaGordino

I feel that 'othering' certain behaviours is an appropriate way of reinforcing opposing behaviours in our society. Without a doubt, the current global socialisation allows, to a greater or lesser extent, mens oppression of women. But the key to defeating that, I believe, lies making the holding of oppressive beliefs a thing of shame and isolation. I take a certain degree of satisfaction in responding to (usually unthinking and minor) sexism in my male friends with the "That's a little bit ISIS isn't it?' It works, too - so far 100% success rate in triggering retraction, rethinking and reframing.

Buffy

Don't forget, Buffy's power was essentially demonic in nature. I'll leave any drawing of analogies to your good self.

Yops · 26/01/2015 16:17

The 'respect' that ISIS show for their fellow men can be strange at times. They are quite prepared to strap bombs to each other and sacrifice their fellow soldiers in suicide attacks. They are quite prepared to saw the heads off other men, video it, and post it on youtube. Ditto with shootings, throwing men off buildings etc etc.

So I don't think ISIS have respect for men as a class. I suppose their hierarchy might look like muslim men > muslim women > everybody else. And within that third pool, everyone is regarded as less than human, ripe for slaughter.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 16:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 16:56

i don't think we're disagreeing here MephistophelesApprentice

MephistophelesApprentice · 26/01/2015 16:57

Me neither, thank The Powers That Be for that.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 18:10

Crisis of representation in anthropology? Can't find suitably consise link, but in as few words as possible, kind of how 'science' helped colonialism

Historical examples which have nothing to do with the current issue of IS. Or the questions posed by the OP.

Above all else I want it hammered home to the sexists in our own society that sexism leads to ISIS

And religion has nothing to do with it ? This of course ignores the fact a man who is not one of them is equally likely to face torture and death.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 18:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 21:59

You do know you sound like a bunch of giggling school girls. The OP raised some valid points most of which were ignored in the expounding of theories.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 26/01/2015 22:01

The giggling is probably to counteract the offhand rudeness.

I might be wrong though.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 22:06

You sound like a bunch of giggling school girls. The OP raised some valid points most of which were iignord.

Buffy I think your problem is that you don't like women who disagree with you. "Sneering" = not saying "Buffy you are so right."

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 22:07

Don't know what that posted twice.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 22:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 22:36

Phaedra, saying "what a pointless comment" is rude.

re pasting it and saying "I disagree" or even "you are wrong" is considerably less rude.

Original poster
Spacemen3 · 27/01/2015 00:00

Thanks for all the contributions to the thread; looks like some interesting links. I'll reply more fully when I have had chance to look at them

OP posts:
Vivacia · 27/01/2015 07:51

The OP raised some valid points most of which were iignord

I hope you don't feel this OP. I thought it was a good idea for a thread, and certainly got me thinking.

almondcakes · 27/01/2015 15:58

This is not some group of foreigners who we should or should not compare to Western men. Thousands of the members of ISIS are educated Western men and women.

Among their stated aims is genocide. They are committing genocidal acts. They are commiting genocidal acts of rape.

It is not comparable to every other war ever. It is comparable to other situations where people attempt to commit genocide.

But comparisons should be about trying to understand and stop this situation, not about making out it is one of those things that always happens.

BreakingDad77 · 27/01/2015 16:29

I thought there stated aim was a caliphate and anyone who stands against this is going to be killed/tortured/raped.

Almondcakes i am not sure where to go in answer to your post, they certainly aren't going to be signing up to the Geneva convention in any hurry and for them why should they?

Syria is in chaos, who are the good guys?!

The West is worried that once Assad (secular) is deposed they there will be a massacre of Christians whom Assad largely turned a blind eye to. I think this is one of many reasons that is stopping the west getting involved.

almondcakes · 27/01/2015 17:04

Breakingdad, some of their stated claims are genocidal. Not all of the religious groups are given the option of converting. They are just to be wiped out.

Their seem to be several different issues:

  1. Direct aid and the rights and wrongs of the forms that should take.
  1. Dissuading people from going. I would separate this into changes to the general education all young people receive and specific interventions to those on the fringes of ISIS. I heard that Germany were using the same approach they use with Neo Nazi teens and having some success.
  1. A need to record and spread the testimony of the minority groups this is happening to. Compare the way the Ravensbruck thread went compared to this one. Look at the descriptions there of how and why women's testimony was ignored from there and see it happening again now. This is important for a. the prosecution of crimes against humanity, b. Our future understanding and c. respect for these women, men and children.
  1. Changes to immigration policy around groups at serious risk of genocide, including international co-ordination.

But the OP was asking about stated aims and her hearing about the situations of these women. Unlike the Ravensbruck thread, there has been little attempt to discuss the testimony and specifics of this situation, and a much bigger attempt to generalise about it.

Vivacia · 27/01/2015 17:37

Unlike the Ravensbruck thread, there has been little attempt to discuss the testimony and specifics of this situation, and a much bigger attempt to generalise about it.

Why do you think this is? ( You sound quite accusatory).

almondcakes · 27/01/2015 18:29

Vivacia, I don't mean to sound accusatory. I think it may be because people are very familiar with WW2 through education, museums, books and so on. They have a framework to fit the women's testimony in.

People may be completely unfamiliarwith the situation of, for example, the Mandaeans, their culture, history, beliefs and way of life and so on. It's harder to think about the individuals involved without a context you are familiar with.