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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Who to vote for as a feminist

419 replies

WorkingBling · 20/01/2015 11:27

I am really struggling ahead of the elections. I have decided that commitment to feminist principals needs to be a strong part of my voting decision making process. But I honestly am not sure this helps.

Lib dems have terrible track record and while I like nick's wife, I can't vote for a party where there's only one woman I am impressed by.

Instinctively i am more of a labour supporter but with the exception of Harriet H I honestly feel underwhelmed by their female representation and view on women.

This leaves the conservatives. There are a number of woman in the party who impress me. But Dave doesn't strike me as a man who really believes in feminist principals.

Help please. All you lovely informed women must have some thoughts.

OP posts:
PuffinsAreFictitious · 23/01/2015 20:42

No worries Gatorade, it's a bit of a minefield!

The basics are that some people want to make it a-ok for men to use women in this way, but others want to make it safer for women by criminalising the men (which has ramifications re: being believed and helped when raped etc), while providing training, social work and other help to women who want to leave. (A conservative estimate puts that figure at about 89% of them)

fallingapartfast · 23/01/2015 20:49

Green!!!

SlicedAndDiced · 23/01/2015 20:49

PuffinsAreFictitious now that is a policy I could get behind.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 23/01/2015 20:57

Then Sliced, welcome to the Nordic model supporters club! We have cookies. And cake.

We also have an understanding that most prostituted women tend not to actively choose to be prostituted, and are looking for ways out where they won't be stigmatised. The only stigma should be with the men who use women in this way.

Anyway, back to the thread!

Having thought about it a bit more, I probably will vote green and work from within the party to get them to change their focus with reference to prostitution.

Lioninthesun · 23/01/2015 21:01

I was just wondering what you non-green voters think your party will do to be actively trying to protect women working as prostitutes or trafficking?
I think the Green Party have been very brave to put anything about it at all into their manifesto. It shows that they are thinking about women, which is more than I got from any of the others!

SlicedAndDiced · 23/01/2015 21:05

Yay! That sounds exotic Grin

In all seriousness though that sounds the closest to what I've always personally thought about the issue.

fayyive · 23/01/2015 21:11

breaking news- The Green party will be allowed to participate in the TV leaders' debates after all Smile

greenparty.org.uk/news/leaders-debates-announced-green-party-statement.html

PuffinsAreFictitious · 23/01/2015 21:12

I agree Lion, it's just that, for a lot of people who know about the issue, the stance they've taken is disappointing.

PetulaGordino · 23/01/2015 21:18

Lion I don't have any allegiance to any particular party. I'm still exploring the different propositions and local candidates

SlicedAndDiced · 23/01/2015 21:19

That's good news fayyive.

I couldn't see a good enough reason why any party should have been denied the chance to appear.

FloraFox · 23/01/2015 21:33

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FloraFox · 24/01/2015 12:10

fayyive MNHQ have clarified that asking someone if they are a punter is not against the guidelines and have asked me to post again with the clarification of why I am asking.

You posted a link from a site created by a woman in prostitution who spoke to the NI government on behalf of an organisation which was formed and funded by and represents pimps.

We have often asked men on prostitution threads if they are punters and a number of them have said they are. We have had interesting discussions with them which illuminate some of their thinking about their entitlement to buy women for sex. Some were shocking including one man who recounted a time a young woman cried as it was her first time and how moved he was and pleased he could help her financially. And of course he still fucked her.

Men come onto prostitution threads to push lies generated by pimps while claiming they are primarily interested in women's welfare, therefore it is relevant to ask someone pushing these lies if they are punters. Even if you are not a punter, if you think prostitution is just service or job like any other, why would you be offended at being asked if you participate? And why should I care if you are offended when your whole stance of upholding the availability of women as sex chattels for men is deeply offensive to me?

fayyive · 24/01/2015 15:30

No I'm not a punter or pimp. Are you?

The quote is from Carina Edlund from Sweden, the site I linked to containing her quote is a blog by Laura Lee from NI.

Both these women sell sexual services, they are not pimps.

fayyive · 24/01/2015 15:47

"when your whole stance of upholding the availability of women as sex chattels for men is deeply offensive to me"

Did you even read my earlier posts which compare the Nordic model to decriminalisation?

The Green party's stance on prostitution (which I agree with) is because they think that is the system which will be safest and in the best interests for those in prostitution (because reasons discussed earlier in this thread).

SkaterGrrrrl · 24/01/2015 17:05
FloraFox · 24/01/2015 17:20

It would be odd behaviour if I was a pimp or punter to be pointing out that the Greens' stance on prostitution is a reason for feminists not to vote for them. So, no, I'm not.

Laura Lee spoke at the NI Assembly - she is not from NI, she is from the Republic and now lives in Scotland. She was there to represent the International Union of Sex Workers. She confirmed that pimps are members of IUSW and later confirmed it has 10 members, she didn't say how many were pimps.

It's very uncommon for normal men to know about people like Laura Lee but she is extremely well known among that group of men who seem to think women's rights to be prostituted as sex chattels requires them to read everything and tell women how important this issue is for women.

As far as the Greens are concerned, according to their policy page, they consider prostitution to be a matter of "rights and responsibilities". Their general statement of principles talks about individual rights as well as responsibilities in how those rights are exercised.

They make this statement:

It is humankind's responsibility to carry out only activities that enhance or maintain the quality, variety, diversity, integrity and wholesomeness of human society and the life support system. Those activities which are exploitative, or threaten either the well-being of others, society, the life support system or the future must be avoided.

Which I would agree with. However, in their section on prostitution, they say:

the Green Party believes that attempting to stop the sex industry by using prohibitive laws is neither desirable nor realistic.

They are very clear that stopping the sex industry is not desirable.

They also say:

Criminalisation of many parts of the sex industry leaves those working within it in a vulnerable position. They are often unable to turn to the law for help in cases where their rights are violated, and instead fall prey to criminal gangs and pimps.

They are clear that they view the source of the harm as being criminalisation completely ignoring the source of the harm as the punters and pimps who exploit the women and inflict violence.

Their discussion on harm and exploitation comes later with some wooly minded acknowledgement of the harm and exploitation which includes limited regulation only of brothels while leaving other aspects of prostitution unregulated.

policy.greenparty.org.uk/rr.html

I'm also not sure about their approach to pornography. They say in the policy page that pornography should be permitted, no mention of regulation. How is that consistent with their opposition to page 3.

These are the sorts of reasons I would not vote for them. I can't see a coherent feminist approach to this issue, it seems mostly a libertarian approach.

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 17:25

Interestingly I understand (though I don't know where from so it may not be true) Caroline Lucas is against her party's stance on prostitution

PuffinsAreFictitious · 24/01/2015 17:39

Flora... are they really talking about decriminalisation as opposed to regulation? Not that either is better than the other when it comes to harm reduction of course, but is that really where they're heading? Maybe Rachel Moran and Rebecca Mott should go and talk to them, give them a small taster of how life really goes as a prostituted woman.

PhaedraIsMyName · 24/01/2015 17:50

was just wondering what you non-green voters think your party will do to be actively trying to protect women working as prostitutes or trafficking?

On trafficking? I hope they would enforce the existing law to the utmost.

On women working as prostitutes? I don't honestly care much beyond seeking to enforce the existing criminal law which is intended to protect all of us.

I am opposed to any measures which might facilitate prostitution.

PhaedraIsMyName · 24/01/2015 17:55

Flora very interesting post.

Scotpep pushes the same sort of agenda as what appears to be Green policy. I am not suggesting Scotpep is anything other than genuine women not pimps or punters but I still think they are wrong.

www.scot-pep.org.uk/

fayyive · 24/01/2015 19:33

"Laura Lee spoke at the NI Assembly - she is not from NI, she is from the Republic and now lives in Scotland."

ok I stand corrected on the fact she is from ROI and not NI. It's also worth noting she has over 20 years experience as a prostitute in brothels and as a "call girl" or "escort", and after all those years she still advocates decrim over any other model.

"They say in the policy page that pornography should be permitted, no mention of regulation. How is that consistent with their opposition to page 3. "

Just guessing here but maybe they think there's a time and place for pornography, and a family newspaper isn't one of them?

FloraFox · 24/01/2015 19:59

Puffins they are proposing regulating the use of commercial premises as brothels by local authority licensing "to ensure protection of those working there and clients from abuse, and protection of the local community from nuisance and abuse" (my emphasis). However they are proposing no regulation of prostitution in residential premises but "subject to the avoidance of nuisance and abuse" whatever that means and no regulation at all of street prostitution, although "wherever possible particular areas should be designated where street prostitutes can work in safety without upsetting local residents and traders".

The policy is founded on an individual rights analysis with no recognition of the inherent exploitation and harm in prostitution, the gendered nature affecting women nor the effect on women in society. They don't even recognise that the harm is suffered by the women in the way they ensure the regulations must also stop the "clients" from abuse.

Phaedra I don't know much about the make-up of Scot-Pep. The use of the words "sex worker" obscures the organisation as that includes pimps as well as cam women and strippers. The stuff I've heard them say has been along the same lines as happy hooker Laura Lee. I also think they are wrong.

Many of the women in prostitution who are vocal about decriminalisation are older women (compared with the bulk of women in prostitution) and some of these want to become pimps (or "managers") themselves, such as the women in the Canadian prostitution case, Bedford. It's not surprising that such women would advocate for decriminalisation of pimping and brothel-keeping.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 24/01/2015 20:34

But, their thinking makes no sense. It doesn't protect or guarantee anyone's rights or responsibilities. It also, as you say, doesn't name the bloody problem in the prostitution equation.

I might email my local party and see if they can offer any clarification of their views.

fayyive · 24/01/2015 20:42

I don't think it's fair to dismiss or try to discredit what a prostitute (or any group she happens to be part of) has to say just because she prefers the term "sex worker" over prostitute.

greenparty.org.uk/leaders-blog/2014/11/01/pushing-prostitution-into-the-dark-is-no-way-to-keep-vulnerable-women-and-men-safe/

From this article it is clear the Greens do acknowledge prostitution comes with a risk of violence and other abuse, and they have listened to prostitutes when considering their stance.