I'm not comfortable with calling women 'mysoginists'

[LaurieFairyCake]

Yes to saying they display mysognistic behaviour but no to calling them mysoginists.

I'm not sure it's possible to hate your own sex. Yes, you can carry out behaviours that criticise, denigrate and collude with attacks on women.

But surely calling a woman a mysognist misses the point, that women can be forced or coerced to carrying out acts that shore up the patriarchy but they are part of the same group that is hated. And thus a victim of it.

Yes, I'm thinking about that female judge today who was a fucking arsehole and certainly colluded with mysognistic behaviour.

Others have said women can be mysoginists and I don't want to derail that thread by chatting about it

Of course it's possible to hate your own sex. The misogynistic behaviour is informed by misogynistic beliefs. That those beliefs (and hatred) are moulded by the patriarchy doesn't make them not misogynistic.

I have seen many many times women saying 'I get on better with men'. What is that if not writing off a whole gender, which includes themselves? It is illogical, but a very common statement.

But hating your own sex also means self hatred which makes no sense.

I can only see that carrying out mysognistic behaviours comes from suffering because of mysoginy themselves.

Then surely men too can display misogynistic behaviours and traits without being misogynists. They grow up in the same society, are subject to the same pressures, images and stereotypes, so that it becomes ingrained and second nature. Hence, a lot of blokes are capable of lightbulb moments, when they suddenly 'get' a lot of stuff - like everyday sexism. There are a lot of women on here who will tell you it has happened to their partners.

In short, men and women are pretty much the same. It seems to me that your post is saying they aren't.

I guess it's the difference between naming the behaviour or naming the person.

That judge has certainly displayed a mindset that damages women.

I think women can be mysogynist. The mysogynist model is so deeply rooted in society that women buy into it too. In fact, women are encouraged to buy into it.

Yes, the misogynistic behaviour comes from suffering from misogyny. But their response is to absorb it, and try and separate themselves from it by applying it to 'other' women. The judge sees the 16-year-old as manipulative, at fault, and can therefore separate herself (or, say, her 16-year-old daughter) from being a potential victim.

The women who 'get on better with men' are separating themselves from the fluffy masses of 'other women' who like shopping or bitching, or whatever misogynistic stereotype they don't feel applies to them.

I don't think misogyny can be an innate part of a person can it? Anything with the suffix 'ist' implies continuing thought processes or actions, doesn't it? Feminist, racist, artist, activist, paleontologist...

This is why men can be radically violent. They see misogyny in profound ways because they carry the same internal power structure. They see where the turn to perversion and domination takes place more precisely.

Its as if there are women to naturally complement these animals, its a vile reality indeed. A woman who has the capability og engaging in coitus with her esophagus makes change seem infuriatingly hopeless.

I've a cousin and she's very well educated with a good career, and insists on Ms rather than Mrs which is fine, agree with her there, but what surprises me is that she judges women so much more harshly than she judges men. She doesn't realise that's what she's doing I think. I think she identifies with having no tolerance for sexist men, but again and again on facebook I saw posts that judged women very harshly. For things they'd chosen (to be a sahm) or for things that were outside of her own understanding and experience (being on benefits). She'd have no idea at all that I think of her as a bit of a misogynist feminist.

I think your cousin has internalised misogyny and it is affecting her judgements on other women's behaviour and choices. Much as the stupid female judge has. If you have internalised misogynist messages and it impacts on your behaviour then are you not a misogynist, whether male or female?

So true. It bores me, that assertion "I don't get on with other women". Riiight. None of them?

But hating your own sex also means self hatred which makes no sense

What? Do you genuinely not believe that self-hatred exists?

Bell hooks is interesting on this.
She beautifully describes sexist women who've bought into patriarchy.
And why wouldn't they? If I look back on my life, I've been sexist about many things, unerringly, it's hard not to!
Indeed I still am in many ways....make up, hair, fashions, fucking giggling, commenting on appearances (I try incredibly hard not to do it but it's still 'there')

It was a revelation for me. We are socialised from day 1 to conform to patriarchy and it's pretty hard not to exhibit some sexist behaviour. Unconscious bias and all that.

How were you conditioned to comment on appearances?

"How were you conditioned to comment on appearances?"

We all are- practically from birth. That is how women and girls are assessed and judged.

"I get on better with men than women" is sexist but not misogynist, if that's all that is said.

I think either sex can be sexist or misogynist.

I did see this comment with relation to the 44yr old case, I would say there are a lot of 'men cant help themselves' apologists. I posted in the other thread a link from the ourdaughters websites where again she made an apologist comment about him which the jury disagreed with.

letusreasontogether - look at newspaper reports about women and there are very few, if any that don't mention their appearance (as one of the first and foremost things about them). Then look at articles about men.

Here is a good example of how a man's appearance is not commented on or even noticed as much as women.