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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women serving on the front line-woman on radio 5

127 replies

PenelopePitstops · 19/12/2014 08:48

Listening to the radio this morning and they are discussing women fighting on the front line. A woman is on there arguing that women shouldn't be allowed to serve Shock

Otoh a fabulous man is arguing against her very well saying that women are equal and why on earth can't they do the same job.

An interesting debate.

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 30/12/2014 23:19

No I am not arguing against the choice women should have. Not once have I argued that.

Do we have to live in a society where people are needed on the frontline? That very patriarchal. Isn't feminism about breaking down the patriarchy?

GraysAnalogy · 30/12/2014 23:23

So what are you doing then? You oppose it and added your points, therefore you argue against it Confused

Jesus I don't think I can even be bothered getting into this with you if you think feminism breaking down the patriarchy is going to stop us needing men and women on the frontline in war zones. That's ridiculous. No amount of feminism is going to stop wars. No amount of feminism is going to stop us needed an army, in us needing to staff an army.

Or do you really think women are that perfect that war will be abolished by breaking it down?

scallopsrgreat · 30/12/2014 23:31

I think tackling male violence will massively reduce the need for war yes, if not eradicate it.

I am not opposed to women having the option to join the infantry. I am opposed to war. For me, supporting male violence isn't a goal of feminism.

Not sure why you are being so hostile.

GraysAnalogy · 30/12/2014 23:36

I'm sorry but I very much doubt it would eradicate it, and I also think that's extremely insulting to suggest that men are the route of war.

Being opposed to war is sort of irrelevant to this argument because unfortunately we as a world are nowhere near world peace, or being able to sort out differences out by other means. I doubt anyone supports war in contrast to your opposed. But right now, it's here.

So, until then, until we no longer need war (if that ever comes), women should have the opportunity to go frontline. It wouldn't be my choice for my life, wouldn't be yours by the sounds of things, but that's not the point.

scallopsrgreat · 30/12/2014 23:46

Maybe it's not relevant to this particular conversation. Originally, I was just offering an interpretation of what TheCowThatLaughs said.

I'd be interested to know what is the root of war if it isn't male violence.

GraysAnalogy · 30/12/2014 23:53

I'm sure it's an awful lot of factors, but we cannot simply put the blame on males. There are cultures very distant from ours in which patriarchy doesn't exist, fighting still happens.

scallopsrgreat · 30/12/2014 23:54

Patriarchy exists in all cultures.

GraysAnalogy · 30/12/2014 23:58

You're not looking very far afield then, or taking a look back in history through various tribes that once existed but unfortunately were eradicated thanks to 'modernisation' and infiltration.

scallopsrgreat · 31/12/2014 00:06

I thought we were talking about society as it is now. I must admit, though, I haven't heard of any non patriarchal cultures that were still violent.

However I am happy to be proved wrong. There are some good anthropologists around here who may be able to help.

GraysAnalogy · 31/12/2014 00:14

On that point I was arguing that patriarchy doesn't exist in all cultures and never has.

History has told us that even matriarchy society will have their wars. It's not just a male problem as you seem to think.

scallopsrgreat · 31/12/2014 00:15

What history? And who says we want a matriarchy? I honestly didn't think any society had ever been matriarchal.

scallopsrgreat · 31/12/2014 00:19

Anyway sorry but I'm going to sleep. Night!

GraysAnalogy · 31/12/2014 00:20

There's a few if you have a research, I've had a bit too much gin and can't quite think let alone spell their names right now Grin goodnight!

InMyDay78 · 31/12/2014 14:12

OQOtU, my apologies if the poor formatting of my post annoyed you, I naively assumed that the content was the important factor (Note to oneself; one must do better, report to the Grammar Police at once for tuition).
At no time did I compare toddlers to female soldiers and nor would I. The subject of the examples was the "snap" of annoyance that many parents would recognise from the innocuous walking foibles of toddlers. I then attempted; ineffectively obviously; to try to extrapolate/illustrate the importance of a simple thing like stride length in a common infantry task i.e. moving at a given speed, carrying a significant load, in a given time. It matters not whether the person who fails to keep the pace is male or female, the end result is the same. Your annoyance perhaps also stems from the fact that you see marching as something done on a level tarmac parade ground and have little appreciation of either speed marching (6 mph carrying up to 27 kgs approx) and load carrying (3 mph carrying up to 50 kgs).
I will ensure that in future I fully explain any military activity I mention.
SrG, PAF & iyhayki, on the subject of sexual violence in the services. You appear to have information that I don't because having checked the latest figures I could find there are around 25 allegations of rape and 50 of sexual assault per year for the last 3 years (you may find this interesting ww.loc.gov/law/help/militaryjustice/unitedkingdom.php#Statistics). I'm not denying there will be more than reported. Obviously there will be, as there are in the general population. This is a cheap point scoring comment though as it is neither definably nor deniable. As to the assertion "they know what will happen to them", what is that and is it any different to the friend/colleague attacks elsewhere? I did not defend the number that are reported and I certainly didn't suggest that there is not an issue within the services (although sexual harassment may be a bigger problem in terms of numbers if not effect). However 2 points. Firstly the reason that there is separate male and female accommodation is historic; rooted in Victorian and Edwardian morals; in the modern forces the prevalent reason for not allowing personnel into the opposite gender's accommodation is privacy (and trying to stem consensual sexual activity) rather than abuse. Secondly, the tone of your comments give the impression that females are locking themselves away in fear throughout the services. That is errant nonsense. That it happens is sadly undeniable and that in some cases it is NCOs assaulting those in their charge is reprehensible. However, in answer to your slur "if you were in the services" I would say that you again appear to be suggesting that attacks are happening all the time. everywhere and everyone is aware of it. In my 28 years service (yes I was in!) I am personally aware of 2 alleged assaults at Barracks where I was and 3-4 in other Barracks where the Corps was based.

Finally the training, you miss the irony of the feminist ideal of inclusion of women by then immediately suggesting their needs mean that they may need to be trained or tested separately/differently from the men with whom they will serve. This misses the central point for most that will oppose this move. As I explained, and you huffily acknowledged; the military have one of the best training systems there is in the UK. It is outcome/effects based, trains to requirement and trains to schedule. It also, because we the taxpayers insist on it, trains to budget. Now, I worry that I may again offend but what the heck! An infantry platoon is not 30 individuals happily going about their business, it is not a drawing office nor is it a production line. It is a homogenous group that is required to function as a whole, in the full knowledge and confidence that when a person is given a task they can complete it. If that task is pick up an 11kg GPMG and 5 kgs of ammo, run 800m and then use the gun effectively they need to know that it will be done in order that they don't die when they stand up! In reality that is over egging the case but there are numerous tasks that will be done on a weekly basis that require a given level of strength, agility, etc. All must be capable of completing these.

IMD

PS I'm sure Indira, Benazir, Golda & Margaret would not agree on your primary cause of war (religion, land, water, minerals, racial tension, etc but I assume men are responsible for all of these as well).

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 31/12/2014 14:56

No my annoyance stems from the fact that you directly compared female soldiers marching to toddlers Kicking their heels & "veering off to the side".

And your posts still read like shit. Put some spacing in if you want people to read them.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 31/12/2014 17:34

You appear to have clumped us all in one lump.

Your posting style up until the last has at least been coherent. Now, not so much.

The sub clause, if you were in the services was neither meant, nor would have been taken by anyone else as a slur. I don't doubt you have served.

There was no attack on you implied in my post. Nor upon the armed services. I wonder why you see fit to attack me and suggest that I know nothing about this subject.

Millie3030 · 01/01/2015 13:10

inmyday78 the reason people are having trouble reading your posts is because there are no paragraphs, which makes it difficult to read on a tablet or phone, put a paragraph in and it will be easier.

I do however, still disagree. A drawing office or a production line Who said it was what are you going on about? You are belittling what the women on this thread are saying. You say you may offend but what the heck well you have offended me!

I'm not a supporter or war, but I'm a supporter of equality, the idea that a homogenous group (as you stated) needs to function as a whole, are you implying that putting women in to the mix makes in not homogenous?? That women wouldn't be able to complete a task they were given? That is the problem right there, and it's utter crap!

PetulaGordino · 01/01/2015 16:22

The actual tests etc are rather beside the point. The thing that is daft is a unilateral ban based on sex - unless there is a specific requirement of the job description that requires a penis and testicles? Presumably the qualities required of this type of industry changes with time and the qualifications for entry adapt accordingly. If that ends up excluding a large proportion of women soldiers then that may be so, but to exclude unilaterally is nonsensical.

I'm assuming IMD (as he signs off) is a parody of an ARRSE poster btw - it's very amusing

PetulaGordino · 01/01/2015 16:23

Infantry autocorrected to industry there

Millie3030 · 01/01/2015 22:14

Exactly!

PuffinsAreFictitious · 01/01/2015 22:42

Oh... if anyone wants any of the jargon explained, I'll do me best.

not that I know what I'm talking about though, natch

InMyDay78 · 02/01/2015 12:20

Happy New Year.

The inclusion of women will happen and; if you had read what I'd written; there are women capable of passing both combat infantry and the Commando courses.

The right for them to join the teeth arms and Royal Marines is not what I have the issue with. My concerns as stated are that supporting the proposition solely from a position of equality (Quote "The actual tests etc are rather beside the point") rather than knowledge of what the roles actually involve leads to a dismissal of pertinent information (as sexism or misogyny apparently!).

I will stick to the training regime at CTCRM which I know best.

PAF supports the idea that it may be acceptable for women to undergo physical training separately and have different testing criteria. I reject that absolutely, ( & as an aside, PAF I am not attacking you, I am challenging your viewpoint as is normal in any debate). It also goes against the very ethos of Commando training which is in part designed to bond recruits (& subsequently fellow Marines) based on common shared experience; good or bad; and achievement.

Additionally there may only be one or 2 females in any recruit troop, any odd number makes some tasks impossible if conducted seperately. I would hope that those reading that have trained to a high level; completed marathons, triathlons, etc; would agree that a training partner or group training can be a great boost at moments of weakness.

I fully understand that different training methodologies can produce the same result; and given an extended period of time could also in PT. That time is not available if men are to be treated equally.

Three of the criteria tests that must be passed by all are the 30 foot rope climb, the 6 ft wall (as part of a longer test) and the 9-mile speed march wearing equipment and weapon. All are passable by women as has been stated and demonstrated. However none of the women that passed them undertook separate physical training, nor was the difficulty of the tests ameliorated for gender.

The first 2 require significant upper body strength that can only be achieved by targeted PT and the latter requires lower body/core strength and mental endurance. Knees down press-up don't produce the same effect as the military press nor does running produce the same effect as speed marching (average 10 minute miles, on all terrain, carrying weight and wearing boots not training shoes. By its very nature this carries a risk of lower limb stress fractures or shin splints). The weight carried on these tests simulates combat loading and is not adjustable other than by a change within Doctrine.

I think the stated position refers only to initial training. Is it seriously viable for an female Royal Marine to conduct PT and other physical activities separately throughout her 20 plus year career? What about when she is promoted and has to lead her troop on PT?

In terms of the "homogenous group", the intent is not to dismiss the ability of a female but rather to illustrate that her male colleagues must have faith that she is as strong, focussed and capable as they are and I don't see how a separate PT standard can demonstrate this (see above).

As said by PG entry standards (and the subsequent training methodology) at CTCRM have changed by virtue of Validation and I alluded to this above. Over the years the testing regime has also changed but significantly the testing required by the customer have not. To repeat myself, nor has the budget changed and therefore time allocated to complete training (to any great extent).

It isn't an issue here and won't influence the decision made by politicians but implementing this will cost millions of pounds. As a taxpayer I'm interested to know whether that will come from the already overstretched MoD budget or from Health, Education or elsewhere.

As my final comment. I am not arguing against the proposition but caution those that suggest equality means unequal treatment from the start of their careers perhaps alienating the very people with whom they want to serve.

IMD (its my name!)

Millie3030 · 02/01/2015 13:39

That was much easier to read, thank you. And I do agree with your point, I think there should be no separate testing, the tests, training and outcome should be the same, exactly the same.

Whatever infantry are expected to do in combat, men and women should do. How would it ever be fair if the men were looking at the women in the front line thinking, "you wouldn't be able to drag me out of danger if I was injured" or "you passed an easier test that's why you are here". You can imagine it now, those comments would be used against women if any arguments were to occur. But if women tested alongside the men, showed they were strong and capable and passing the rope climb, the run, the push ups etc, (and they won a few arm wrestles with the men too) as they have trained their upper body to be damn strong then I believe they would be more respected. Equality is equality, and the men would see them as a strong colleague.

Testing alongside the men would also mean no separate funding, so wouldn't cost more money. Surely the military/goverment should just say, 'women can now apply for all army/navy/military roles, the sign up sheet is here and the testing day is x'. Why does it have to be complicated? Those who pass, pass.

EveDallasRetd · 02/01/2015 14:20

Those who pass, pass, is the ideal, but as I think I said above (or maybe it was on another thread about the same thing - I've been on a couple Smile), it's not just the fitness.

The studies into gender free testing cost money, money that the MOD should not be wasting on something that the majority have no interest in. Women can (and do) already go to the front line, they are treated the same as the men who do the same jobs and are as respected as the men that do those jobs.

If women were to be fully integrated into the infantry (for example) then kit would have to be redesigned and reissued for those women. It's all well and good expecting us to wear kit that is designed for men when we are not constantly wearing it - but webbing alone is painful and damaging to the female physique - it's not designed to sit over breasts so rubs and catches if too big and squashes painfully if too small. If the belt fits the waist then it digs into the hips, if it's worn on the hips it jangles and catches when in a prone position. A female with small feet (size 3 or less) can wait for 12 months for issued boots, because they are rarely made. To get around that we are given 'tickets' to go and buy our own (Hi Tec Magnums or the like), but they don't last if you are forced marching and on patrols.

If women joined the RAC and took on a recce role then covert ops in a hidden Observation Point (OP) would be problematic, even if they bought and issued us with She-Wees Grin

Even stupid things like women having to have their hair cut as short as the males would have to be looked into - helmets are not designed for Buns and Plaits, neither are Respirators - I cut my hair bloke short for my first tour in Iraq because I knew it would be safer and easier - but by Christ I hated it when I got back to 'normal' life.

The Services have changed immensely since I first joined (1990) and that is a great thing, but wasting more money on this angers me.

Millie3030 · 02/01/2015 21:14

Other than women being provided a female uniform, what other costs would be involved in saying men AND women all sign up here?