Is it OK to have a career rant here?

[ItsGotBellsOn]

Just perusing the dreaded FB and noticed an ex colleague of mine (male) has posted up pics of the latest high profile conference he is chairing. We are both late thirties now and worked together 10-15 years ago.

It got me thinking (not for the first time) about how amazingly well all the men I worked with in my twenties have done. Every single guy I worked with at that particular workplace - whether bright and talented or not, whether good people or not - have carved really, really impressive, exciting, creative, lucrative careers for themselves. Very, very few of the women - even the brightest and best of us - have.

I just feel so fucking depressed about it. Yes, it is a bit of self pity. I fucked a glittering career in the media by having a child in my twenties. But there is also a sense of rage. All of those bloody brilliant women have just one by one dropped off the radar, are no longer trailblazing in that sector, are no longer visible in the public world. It just feels so wrong.

I am very grateful for this thread.

My dd is 17 soon to choose her University course and then progress into her career. I know she would like to have kids in the future.

What would your advice to her (and all young women) be? How should she look at jobs, opportunities coming her way? I know taking all opportunities is the way forward but I also saw senior woman manager (she was in charge of the whole department) choosing men younger than me to be team leaders because she fancied them (she openly flirted with them at work) and that was disgusting!

I know if I can I will help my daughter in the future should she decide to have kids. My SIL was able to progress in her career because she is very smart and her parents helped her with her 2 kids whilst she was studying to be Medical Doctor and later on during her training. She never took time off for maternity leave as she had her 2 kids during Summer/Christmas holidays. She's done very well in her career over all. Her ceiling are build by men in board of Directors who never appointed any women to be one of them...

In the little sphere of the work world I influence, I make sure there are no after hours meetings. If it is important, have it during the working day.

Whose working day? I work for a multinational, and I have meetings with people in the USA, India, Australia... It's okay if you're just dealing with 2 timezones, but I've been on calls with more, and it's going to be inconvenient for at least one person. We're actually quite lucky in Europe in that sense, as it's more likely to be in our working day than for the US or Asia. But not always.

In fact, although I am based in the UK, the majority of people I deal with on a daily basis are in other countries. That's pretty normal for some careers. Parents here seem to deal with it by doing things like refusing to have any calls between e.g. 17:00 and 19:00 local time, only accepting out of local hours calls on particular days of the week and so on. But you either need to be quite senior or be quite stubborn to do that.

Meant to answer antimatter,too.

I would say to your daughter to go for the career she wants. It won't be easy in all cases, but pretty much no where is sexism-free, so you might as well give what you want a shot.

What I would do then is look for employers with a comparatively good record on employing women - for example, if she becomes an engineer, some companies are quite active in supporting women, and others really, really aren't. You're not going to hear about the bad ones through company stuff (no company is going to admit to being antediluvian in their attitudes, and nearly all will say they believe in equal opportunities) - get networking! If there are industry associations, women's groups, whatever- join them. Go to events, hear what's going on, and that's where you're more likely to speak to people who really would encourage people to apply there, as well as those who won't. Caveat - this is roughly true of my industry; other professions may vary.

Unfortunately, I don't know if things will change massively by the time she's in work, but some employers really are better than others (though even in a good employer, you get bad departments) - and maybe once she's a bit more established things will have moved on more.

Good luck to her, with whatever she decides on.

At this moment she is interested in studying psychology.
I actually told her - it is probably very female dominated profession.
She herself is a feminist but obviously with not much work experience at the moment (just done some volunteering).

Sorry - I meant to say - it is probably very female dominated profession which in some way is better for a woman (less sexism).

Turnip's point about men in academia being so liberal that they are convinced that they can't possibly be sexist holds for health care too, I think.

I'm the grand old age of 47 and after 14 years of post qualification experience and having two children I have only in the past year made lead occupational therapist. I thought it was because I was a bit crap, but now I'm not so sure.

I've noticed that over the years I've gradually had more and more male students and since this is such a female dominated profession I thought this a good thing that men wanted to get in on the action and that my profession must be becoming more desirable and respected if they did. Then I started joking that the men would be leads within three years. Then I started being proved right. Infuriating.

Advice to daughters? I suggest to all my children they pick work which will buy them the lifestyle they want i.e. pay (which if course might be ability to fund a hut only if they not consumeristic or a mansion if that's what they are after - their choices), secondly pick work you will enjoy and is intellectually challenging and thirdly pick work such that you could work for yourself and own the business. I have made most money as an owner, not a PAYE worker. It's fun to keep all the profits and generate them.

Both my daughters are also lawyers like I am and so far so good.

If we look at the relative on this thread who is a doctor and done well she was not off for long when she had babies. If you look at me - again not off long and in my day that was 2 weeks of annual leave although some took 3 months of maternity leave. When I was self employed with the last two no maternity rights anyway so I was taking business calls the next day (which of course is heaps easier than looking after 3 under 5s as any working or stay at home parent would tell you).

Lean in, work hard. Those who do well whether male or female do that - the 4am taxis to the air port, the 5.30am starts to catch a train to Manchester. Men don't like that. Women don't like that. Most won't do it but in plenty of jobs IF and it's a big if you want to make those efforts then it does pay off. Most people don't understandably want to do that and that's fine - all the more chance for women and men who are prepared to do it to get their own chances.

I would say if you work for yourself you get more power and control - be the owner, not the worker. I can set my own diary by and large. I can collect my children at odd times from school next week after some exams because I decide what I do on most days and I take a judgment call on what is more important on a particular day. There is no boss but I. I am God in that sense and it rocks.... be God.

While I do agree with you to a degree, green grow - and I like you very much as one of your posts years ago directly induced me to ask for, and get, a pay rise - it doesn't work like that always. Lots of men as well as women are getting stuck in my workplace too. The only ones being promoted are that particular brand of willy-waving bulls hitting man who takes credit for everyhing going and often has no clue what he's talking about. It is infuriating!

Ebear of course in saying that I am talking about same people who have the same working patterns I do and on issues I know can fit within our working day.

This is not just a feminist issue but a human issue. The best companies I have worked for is where senior management realise that it is important for all employees, not just mothers or parents, to have a reasonable balance. I have also found the best male colleagues are those whose wives have equally senior roles at work and who have to share parental responsibiliies. The worst ones are those that have wives who do not work outside the home and therefore have no concept of needing to balance responsibilities.

At this point I always want to ask why anyone cares about getting into senior management - full of tedious meetings and backstabbing and empty papers about strategy. The interesting work is usually done at the level below that, in my experience. (Though, having never reached senior management, I may be being unfair.)

But - obviously some people do want to scale the heights, and of course it is much better for organisations and the world as a whole if a large proportion of people at the top are women.

The problem is partly about socialised behaviour, isn't it. There is loads of research on how women get pigeonholed as weak or aggressive, and how hard it is for women to tread the very narrow path in between. There is a particular sort of male (often expensively educated) who has absorbed how to project confidence, even if they're not actually as able as the women (and non-alpha men) around. I would be really interested to see some research on the correlation between ability and success in the workplace... I suspect it's not very high.

Badgers, the navy sounds better than the RAF then!

I am not commissioned btw, I'm a senior non-commissioned, so have worked up from the lowest rank to where I am now. My work doesn't include lots of meetings etc either, it's hands on engineering.

I joined up a year after they stopped sacking women for being pregnant, so as a bright young thing I saw very few examples of women in senior (non commissioned) ranks - the few that were had made the choice to have no children or were closet lesbians, so not married (it was still 'illegal' to be gay in the forces at that time).

I worked very hard and have done extremely well - but this has had more of an impact on me and my children than any of the men I work with, as (in general) they did not have a serving spouse and were not seen as a potential 'problem' solely based on the fact they had offspring.

The overt sexism died out over the late 90s in my experience, but the subtle stuff is still there. I am 'aggressive' where a man is 'assertive', I am 'nit picking' when a man 'has rigorous standards', I am 'nagging' when a man is 'tenacious' etc etc etc.

It has struck me recently that I know of no woman who has a serving spouse and children, who has been promoted past chief tech level in my trade. There are still no female WOs in my trade. One of our high flier women who I believed would be the first female WO engineer has recently elected for early release because she's had enough of fighting the system too (and she is single with no kids) - if she's had enough, what hope do the rest of us have.

I have spent the whole of my children's life with me and my husband flip-flopping deployments and duties, I really can't be arsed anymore.

There is the potential to do well regardless of sex, and the RAF is ' an equal opportunities employer' - but I really want to see the breakdown of women who serve over 22 years, and how many of them are mothers, and how many of them have serving spouses.
(A woman is proportionately more likely to have a serving spouse than a man in the forces, too - another thing that works against us).

The new changes regarding deployments increasing from 4 to 6 months is driving more women to leave post children, as it is not a rosy prospect when you realise that a you will go for 6 months, then your husband will go for 6 - leaving your children as a single parent family for a lot of their lives. Another underhanded way of discouraging mothers to remain in the forces imo.
In the 15 years I and my husband have been together, this last 12 months have been the first consecutive 12 that neither of us have had to go away for any length of time - and that's only because I have been downgraded with crohn's disease and have had a bowel resection (otherwise I would have been in Kandahar).

(Sorry, long rant!)

Ugh. This thread resonates. I have a senior job in a team where I am both the youngest (by more than a decade) and the ONLY woman at management level. I've just changed role to a significantly bigger, more challenging job and my company has just told me they won't be increasing my pay (after they'd already announced my appointment )

Meanwhile all my male colleagues have had their new packages stitched up ages ago.

I am going to have to go and fight it but will have to make a real bitch of myself and I am starting to deeply resent the fact I am treated like shit because I am expected to meekly accept whatever is given to me. It's like I should be grateful to be given the experience of, erm, more work. And everywhere I look it's the same - big swinging dicks supported by meek women doing the actual work and getting paid 50% of what their "boss" is.

I am not going to put up with it and will leave if it's not resolve, but really it shouldn't come to that.

(I am a regional CEO btw so really you think this nonsense shouldn't be happening by now.)

Heh - Irene x post. I would say that women are socialised not to pursue power as an end goal in itself ("as long as I'm doing interesting work it's ok") which is really limiting.

Having the power to shape and change an organisation is why it's more fun being a leader and it's a shame that more women don't pursue it.

I am not suggesting it is easy particularly in big companies. There is no magic solution. What women could do that men do more includes:

1. Ask for more pay than you are offered and work hard on that.
2. Tell everyone how brilliant you are.
3. Move move move - in many jobs those who keep moving to get higher pay even if it means across the country ( my husband moved hundreds of miles and sold his house for my career in London), even if it means you are not close to mother any more - be brave, take risks.

Even then it is difficult of course.

on pay one of my daughters got a rise to over £100k this year in her 20s. That was a lot more than her colleagues male and female at the same level. I presume she pushed and asked for it and works harder than they do and is better. The other one who did discuss her pay aims at length with me last year pushed much more than any man around her for more pay, gave her boss comparable pay elsewhere, force the HR department to do research on comparable pay in similar roles, asked for her rise half way through the year and then still pushed for the usual annual rise and got a £20k rise from a fairly low starting point - now up to about £55k including bonus. In other words she took my advice. Now another part of my advice was also find another job elsewhere and show your boss you have this other offer at a higher rate but that is harder to do as you have to find someone else to hire you and the company you are at has to really want you. Their brother who has graduated is currently a post man. I have no problems with that either. The last thing I want is children who are clones and his aims are different from those of his ambitious sisters. meanwhile I hope my years from 50 - 60 with fewer obligations as the younger children will be getting easier should be the best of my life in terms of maximising earnings and working as I choose - it will be a wonderful decade of earning a lot and freedom to develop my business as I choose.

The fact I am happy and successful and have done well of course annoys a lot of people but it does not mean I do not appreciate the difficulties a lot of women have. I would say I have spent 30 years trying to eradicate sexism where I can. I had two people on a course recently who were women and the rest were men - sometimes it is 50/50 and sometimes mostly women. Anyway those two didn't say a word all day. Why? Did they not have views? Why did the men speak and not the women. I am not saying that is typical - lots of women lawyers often have views to express but it is an example of how women should push themselves forward more, shout from the rooftops how good they are, do all that personal publicity. Sell your own brand as it were.

I still remain of the view that having a non sexist marriage is one of the things that helps most. If you know that your other half is the one who rushes home to collect children or you alternate life is a lot easier.

On another note, I managed to out-argue one of the most outspoken male managers today. This is not going to be good for me...

I work in a very female dominated sphere but far from this meaning sexism is cancelled out it's seems worse. Men are seen as a novelty and penis=great thing regardless of ability because of that novelty. I am at the point in my career now where I'm making headway into senior management from being a middle manager for the past 4 years (had DC2 during that time) and it is a real fight, I'm having to prove myself above and beyond male colleagues because, well because penis it appears, ineffectual men find promotion easier than hardworking, dedicated women.

I am fighting and will fight as I'm bloody good at my profession and I will not be sidelined. However, it is tiring to always be fighting and some days I do think "why am I bothering" luckily these don't last long.

Scarlett, I relate to a lot that you're saying. Despite the fact that I don't see much sexism around here, the impact of having children is a different matter. I read a Commodore's CV recently who has 2 children and his wife is a serving Commander. I was amazed - how have they managed this?! It gave me hope though. DH is also serving, also doing quite well, but I'm probably only where I am because we have no DCs (yet, I hope - first RMC appointment next week, but at least part of the problem has been years of deployments keeping us apart) and I keep living in hope that changes in regulations over parental leave, which the Navy has been really quick to adopt, will help. It will still mean that only one of us can take a seagoing job at any one time though, and while I can still progress from where I am without doing much more time away, DH still really needs to do at least 2 more jobs at sea. Our deployments have just gone from 6 months to 9 months!

There's a big difference in working time practices around the organisation as well. In some areas, everyone knocks off at 1600, but in NCHQ they're all sitting around all evening doing bugger all and waiting for their boss to finish. I'm lucky as I can set the ethos in my little bit, and here we work as many hours as needed to get the job done. The hardest worker I ever had was one of the admin team who routinely worked 0930 - 1500 to fit in with childcare, but got more done in those hours than anyone else in a full day. The flexibility is there, but only in small pockets. I'm living in hope that it's spreading, and I think it is. I see more and more people with laptops and Blackberries working from home - I've really noticed it this half term week. At least we have transparent and equal pay and promotion boards are anonymous and gender-free. Reading some of the things on here I feel lucky.

This thread resonates with me too. Especially when it comes to the possibility of working part time. My employer would allow me to drop to part time, and indeed almost all the women at work who have school-aged (or younger) children do opt for part time. However, only a very small amount of the men in the same situation drop their hours. Why? Why is this seen as 'normal' for women but 'unusual' for men?

I've always worked full time (even when my children were small). Despite the temptation to stop to part time, I will not do so. If I were part time, I would merely end up doing the same job for less pay (I've seen how it works for my colleagues - workload is only adjusted if you drop to working less than 3 days per week). Plus, being part time really f your pension (especially if the period you are part time coincides with you being relatively young).

I agree with OB. I call part time and flexi time the poisoned chalice. It is like that apple in the garden of Eden - it tempts you and seems a wonderful offering but all it means is career suicide, low pay and your husband thinks you're a pin money earner whose job does not matter and you get lumbered with more ironing at home and the children never appreciate it. You take that one drink from its cup and for many that's it - 30 years of low pay, minimum wage and very hard to get back into the job. I am not saying it should be like this but it is like this.

I was asked what to do if male managers are given better work than the woman. I am not sure. I have to find my own clients and work and I eat what I kill in that sense. I don't have anyone allocating work to me - it's 20 years since I was someone's employee. If it were my daughter asking I would say move to a different job where that does not happen. Most companies want work done by the best person. Be the best person and they tend not to care if you've one leg or are blue or red - if the customers/ clients love you and you are feted as marvelous everywhere then they will stick with you. That is ordinary companies. It may be different in different work places. I would look first at what are those "opportunities and support". Eg if it is being put on to a big account there have been a good few female City trader cases like that - big accounts handed to men (or one man - it is not always sexism it can be preference for some other reason) and not the woman - be the best. If you make 20% a year on your fund and the men make 5% it would be a strange fund which gave the best accounts to the 5 per centers.

It would be interesting to know whether there was less sexism in careers where there's a clear metric of how well you're doing and the company's survival depends on you delivering. It's blurrier in some jobs than others.

In my experience it's an attitude thing, lots of perfectly competent woman in my workplace but they're generally the ones doing the crappy routine stuff that never gets any thanks and if you object to this your seen as a bit hormonal. The men tend to take the bigger higher profile projects and then pass on similar projects to their male counterparts so it looks like only the men are interested in the these. It's basically institutionalized thinking that woman are OK to manage the day-to-day work but you need the men for the 'big ideas'.

I was shocked that there was a 3 day conference and the senior manager had only recommended the 3 males in my team, the rest of us females with families were not even considered. One of my female colleagues is fighting to get the more higher profile work but managers are putting up all kinds of obstacles to this. It's depressing to realize that men get the most influential work because it's mostly other men with the power and influence to grant this

The men tend to take the bigger higher profile projects and then pass on similar projects to their male counterparts

There is actually an HBR article which talks about this - how the best, most high profile and visible projects tend to go to men, so it is the men whose careers climb, while the women are left doing the drudge. It has been suggested that we as women have to push for the better projects, but also that men have to break this mindset.